** Tithing is a giving money to a church because of the 10% rule in the bible. Where they pass around the collection plate after giving you a speech making you feel guilty to give money the church did not earn. On with the rant.
I just read an article yesterday in the paper about some down on her luck woman who is always broke and wants to keep here kids in private school. They listed her monthly expenses and right there, about five from the top, $200 church tithing. WHAT IN THE FUCKING HELL!?
Last week I was listening to the radio and Dave Ramsey (the guy who runs some "god wants you rich" ministry), some caller calls in. Says he is broke, makes $70k year, has a 2 grand house payment, car payments, whatever...and then he says "$1000 month in Church tithing". SON OF A FUCK! Ramsey did not say two words about the tithing, but one of his cars has to go? Or he has to get a second job? How about taking that $1000 and making car payments with it, or food, college fund for your kids, or retirement?
NO! Instead give it to some for-profit organization that tells you all about the afterlife. Like they have ever been there!
What say you, 4-ch?
Wizard's First Rule: People are stupid.
Heh.
Gods making a killing
vc:chiep, lol.
Every time I pay tithing I see miracles in my life. You wouldn't understand because you can't believe in God so obviously miracles don't happen.
If you want to see miracles though? Pay your tithing.
OP here.
So miracles cost money? But even you can see that tithing more than you can afford is not good.
And you are right, I am an atheist, so I cannot see the need to tithe to an organization whos product is something I have to believe actually exists.
the concept of tithing is to give back to god 10% of what you make because everything you make was given to you by god and it's a sign of thanks and appreciation for what you have earned or something. Plus, there are 2 types of tithing: 1st one is thanksgiving tithe, which is just spare change you might have on you at the time, and the 1/10 tithe, which is supposed to do at the end of the month or something. Plus, tithing has more practical purposes such as paying for the rent for the building, utilities, foodstuffs, etc.
Tithing... I agree with the concept and disagree with the concept. Whether or not you believe in a divinity... God does not need money; businesses, governments, institutions and individuals require money. I see the whole tithing thing as a donation. If you are going to church and like the people, find the sermons inspiring, feel touched by the singing and find that church enriches your life go ahead and give an amount that you feel the church deserves and you can afford. Any organization that is hitting you up for money should be boycotted. I don't care whether it is the church next door, the save the trees organization, the cure the measels foundation, the 'I need money to pay tuition' campaign. It doesn't matter if it is religious or secular, it is your money and you spend it as you will. If you want to help the church then go ahead, but they have no right to demand a penny.
In short yes. I'm guessing you don't believe in an organized religion but as >>6 said the idea behind tithing is that God gives you everything and asks for 10% back in return. There's no point to God having it, he doesn't need it. If God wants his church to be rich he'll inspire the leader of the church to walk out into the hills and miraculously find gold or have it rain diamonds or something.
What tithing is is an opportunity for God to test us how much we're willing to believe and follow him. If you're rich and have all the money you'll ever need paying 10% isn't going to be all that hard. What really tests our mettle is whether we're able to pay our tithing when things aren't going so well. Those are the times we need to pay most, remember Job? God's going to test even the most faithful like that, if we can't stand a few trials with paying our tithes we're certainly not very good Christians are we? Something like tithing is minor compared to all the martyrdoms and and persecutions Christians have gone through for centuries. If we can't handle something minor like tithing we sure aren't going to handle something major like that.
Once we've proven ourselves willing to follow God's commandments, THEN we start seeing the blessings. Miracles come AFTER we've proven our faith not before. If you want to look at it that way then yes all miracles require money, whether it's physical tithing or obedience to other commandments God won't give us squat until we do what he asks.
#8, my my my. I must say that I am disturbed with your suggestion that all the evil in the world is due to God testing the faith of the faithful. How is the starving two year old in africa supposed to respond to this test of faith? Oh, why did this poor child end up starving to death? Maybe she didn't pray hard enough!
There is two things required of Christians: to believe in Jesus Christ and to repent of your sins. The extra is just window dressing. I'm not a Christian, but I am a monotheist (aka I believe there is one God) and I can say plainly that the most important thing is your relationship with God, whether it is direct or interceded by Jesus Christ.
So many of the "laws" given out by the church are to keep control of the masses, and the law of tithing has nothing to do with God, but it is to keep the money going to the church flowing. Nonetheless, #8, let me complement you by saying you are a well indoctrinated Christian. And I am certain the next thing you will be thinking if you review this post is how certain you are that I deserve hell. But that is another matter.
Why did a child starve in Africa? Great, this argument again.
There are 2 reasons why bad things happen to people. 1, because people have freedom to choose and 2, for our benefit and learning. I already explained it here http://4-ch.net/science/kareha.pl/1210952614/l50 at # 77 so I'll just point you there.
A simple answer for starvation question which may not be what you're looking for but may help you understand the broader concept. The US alone produces enough food to feed everyone on Earth, it's one of the reasons the US government pays out farm subsidies to tell farmers not to plant crops, we make too much food and it's not worth the cost of producing it. People in Africa starve because there's evil men unwilling to give them food and because the way we've set up our food distribution network makes it so there's no economic value in giving people without money food. To blame God for it is a little absurd.
Everything we do effects others. People chose to build cars without seatbelts, or build their houses on unsafe land, or not wash their hands after using the restroom. God isn't going to protect us when we willingly chose to act without consulting him or at the very least without use of our capacity to use proper judgment.
He can protect those who exercise faith, even that little girl in Africa who doesn't believe in the Christian God can still have a concept of the divine and God can reward her based on her faith as far as she has faith but not against the actions of others. If evil men chose to withhold food from you chances are you'll die.
Okay, anonymous. #10, #8. There is a huge gap in your argument. You are suggesting two different things:
One is that your fate is determined by how much you believe, and is directly determined by God. God directly rewards and punishes as he sees fit.
Another is that God is letting events play as they will. People aren't starving in Africa because of God, but because of bad leaders. Well, then God isn't involved.
Which is it? Or do you see an argument that compromises between these two contradictions?
There's a difference between God coming down and punishing righteous people and allowing evil things to happen to them. Sorry if I'm not explaining it well. Never in the entire history of the planet has God EVER done anything evil to an individual. God ALLOWS evil to happen, ever since Satan in the garden of Eden evil has existed in the world so we can learn.
I really don't understand why you feel there's a gap, I'm actually rather confused here. People starve in Africa because people make poor choices but certainly God controls the weather, allows the sun to shine, in short provides us with food but if we don't go out and plow the fields we'll get nothing, if someone burns your crops you get nothing, if someone steals your food you get nothing, if you make poor choices you get nothing. There is no contradiction. I don't understand, I'm literally highly confused at why you're thinking God is uninvolved since he is the heart of everything.
I wasn't suggesting that fate is determined by how much you believe, where did you get that idea? Because people pay their tithing they see miracles? Yes people will be tested, yes God will allow hard times to fall on us, yes little girls starve in Africa and that hopefully teaches us to be mindful of the needs of others, get off our asses, and do something about it. To cut God out of the equation is impossible since he provides us with the means to help, but to put him in direct control of all the actions of others is equally impossible.
>>What tithing is is an opportunity for God to test us how much we're willing to believe and follow him. If you're rich and have all the money you'll ever need paying 10% isn't going to be all that hard. What really tests our mettle is whether we're able to pay our tithing when things aren't going so well. Those are the times we need to pay most, remember Job? God's going to test even the most faithful like that, if we can't stand a few trials with paying our tithes we're certainly not very good Christians are we? Something like tithing is minor compared to all the martyrdoms and and persecutions Christians have gone through for centuries. If we can't handle something minor like tithing we sure aren't going to handle something major like that.
Don't you think that you should give your belongings to others in need out of the kindness of your heart, and out of good will toward others alone? Why would we need to prove to god that we are worthy of his grace? Could we even manage such a thing? If we are to prove to God our faith, couldn't he discern that without the test being carried out? He knows everything, doesn't he? Surely he can see into the hearts of men.
Could it be instead that we need to tithe in order to prove to ourselves that we truly believe in god? I can believe in god with all my heart, but God may or may not tell me if my faith is genuine. Could tithing be a device by which we can test our own faith?
Of course there are tons of other problems all together, like people who are more than willing to throw their faith in something, anything, because they need an emotional crutch. Are these people more pious believers than someone who has agonized over the problem of the suffering of humanity for years, and finally made the decision to follow Jesus? Do we even have a right to judge either?
I'm an agnostic. I might believe in god, but I sure as hell don't believe in church.
What is that debate all about?
Sure God knows us so well he already knows exactly what we'll do before we do it. Which is why I already explained that everything is for OUR benefit. God knew Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son but did Abraham know?
What God gives us for law is for us to learn. He tells us "Pay your tithing and I'll bless you, trust in ME, make that leap, it'll make you stronger as an individual. I can't make that leap for you, I already know your heart but you don't, you need this."
It's the idea of stepping into a dark tunnel, God promises us that he'll provide us light but we need to enter that tunnel on our own and learn to trust in God.
Ok, just trying to make sure I was getting where you were coming from. I was getting the feeling that you were saying that we need to tithe in order to "be right" with God, or meet his approval, which I don't think is true. In addition, you mentioned that people who falter in the face of adversity aren't "Good Christians" which
>>Once we've proven ourselves willing to follow God's commandments, THEN we start seeing the blessings. Miracles come AFTER we've proven our faith not before.
This, however, I believe to be incorrect. God bestows his blessings to believers, non-believers, good people, and bad people. He acts only according to his will, and you don't need to display your faith to him for him to do good things for you, in fact, many believers come to believe because they feel that God has actively supported them throughout their lifetime. So in conclusion, there are no costs associated with miracles.
ha, i was aware of the collection plate, but not the fact that some people were putting up quite so much. people going into debt over it is the shittiest thing i have ever heard. the church needs money, god doesnt.
Proving your faith and devotion to a god that requires you to spend a life in poverty and ridicule for an eternity in the after-life worshiping "him" does not sound like a very logical thing to do.
Then again, a flying magic man who created everything in seven days and grants your wishes if you think really hard about him every night and give your money to him makes perfect sense.
its very easy to trivialize and put down other peoples beliefs by just employing a bit of sarcasm and by wording things as condescendingly as possible. It doesn't make you seem witty or enlightened. Cut it out.
So tithing is like Social Security. You pay into the fund and if you retire or disabled you get money back. So in this case, I pay money into the tithing fund and I get back a miracle or two.
Well that is an ass concept.
Hey God...here is 2 cents...now give me a better life with a shitload of money and 50 hot supermodels I can fuck whenever I want.
God sounds like a lazy person on welfare. He needs to get his ass a job.
>>"Pay your tithing and I'll bless you, trust in ME, make that leap, it'll make you stronger as an individual. I can't make that leap for you, I already know your heart but you don't, you need this."
>>Proving your faith and devotion to a god that requires you to spend a life in poverty
Jesus says to pay the tithing (not sure about this).
And also taught that we should live a life in poverty, without material attachment (this I am more sure that was said).
Makes all sense that we should pay tithing so we don't get attached to material things (since money is the source to material things).
But than why should be pay tithing to someone else?
"Money doesn't bring happiness so give me yours and be happy, I'll live a sad life with your money for you"?
I believe that the church just distorted the original text (that would be the "original" teaching of Jesus or whoever taugh that) to get some advantage over the population a long time ago and kept it that way (after all, if I'm profiting, why change?).
Why should I be the one to give my money to the church? If I do that I'll be giving temptation to the church that is as human as I am. In other words, I'm doing something bad! It's something like someone who is diabetic giving sugar to someone who's ALSO diabetic.
Sure you can say that church don't get tempted by your money. But for some reason I don't believe in this. Maybe it's because of those huge cathedrals around the world all covered with gold? Guess so.
Anyway, my point is, why should I pay tithing to the church? Can't I, myself, use the money of tithing to help other directly? Like buying food and giving to those who have nothing to eat? Do I have to let the church do it for me?
And one thing about Africa.
>>God controls the weather, allows the sun to shine, in short provides us with food
I'm not an expert on phisical geography but is Africa really a continent with fertile soil? Is the climate there proper to grow crops that are essential to subsistance? Or only one kind of crop will grow there?
I'm not saying Africa is not proper to agriculture, I'm actually asking if it is because I really don't know.
It doesn't matter if you give or not as long as you are conscience free and happy.
My idea of putting money to church is to help them help other people. Either way, I think God will not be mad as long as it is from the heart.
There are things that should be avoided to discuss to avoid conflicts. That is politics and religion. >_<
Well, without discussion there's no evolution.
My mother's church(Unitarian) is really unsubtle about collecting donations. You even see reminders to "remember the fellowship in your will" in the service booklets.
That said, it -is- in the bible. If you can't pay it and want to, you could go to a bigger church where no one will notice and do volunteer work or something instead.
>It's something like someone who is diabetic giving sugar to someone who's ALSO diabetic.
Oh god I lol'd. Also, nice metaphor.
I thought one of the biggest stories of Christianity was the one where Jesus busts into the temple and kicks out the money changers...
Most of the religious people are both naive and stupid, but still, there are a few cases where acknowledgment is required.
>>All of the atheist people are both naive and stupid, but still, there are a few cases where acknowledgment is required.
fixed lol
>>30
What is the definition or "religion"?
Is it possible to live without a "religion"?
>>31
A religion is a system of beliefs. Though the traditional definition implies the presence of a belief in a god (or gods), or soul, or a higher presence, or nature spirits, or afterlife and such things, it is commonly admitted that the belief in the absence of a god/other things is just the same line of thinking, especially when it involves proselytism.
The closer to "no religion" would be agnosticism (because you don't really have faith in anything, you can't really be "in a religion", although this matter is debatable), and maybe some forms of nihilism (because you dismiss the "faith" concept as a whole - though oftimes it includes the dismissal of god and other entities too).