As I was seeing documentary on how Israel was started and then later an interview with the leader of the Gazza settlers who are being moved, and each time I get this feeling from them that they feel the world owes them big time indefinitely. They feel like as if everyone in the world owes them everything. Aything else and they start crying anti-semitism.
They also seem to show isolation. They don't like Arabs or Christians in their "land". They just refuse any sort of cultural/religion intergration.
Speaking as a Jew turned atheist, I feel that most modern Jews suffer from an entitlement complex based upon a history of persecution. So do, to an extent, blacks, Muslims, gays, women, etc.
I think that preference for one's own group is an unfortunate point of human nature. Yes, the Holocaust was horrible, but a Biblical mandate is not an effective foundation for a nation-state. The failure of the British to effectively partition Jewish and Arab parts of Palestine left it wide open for Zionists to lay claim to the land.
I personally think that no side, however, can hold a legitimate claim so long as they align themselves with the violent forces that clash. No Palestinian has the right to claim land when they affiliate themselves with al-Aqsa and the militants within Fatah, etc. No Israeli has the right to claim the land if they encourage or participate in the slaughter and suppression of Palestinians.
> Yes, the Holocaust was horrible, but a Biblical mandate is not an effective foundation for a nation-state.
Aren't those two different things, on the one hand a political and historical reason and on the other hand a religious reason for zionism?
I am all for a sovereign state for jews/the people of Israel. And I don't think it's unreasonable to take a stance on the side of ethnical homogeneity in support of that - as long as that still includes keeping to the standards of human rights when it comes to treating those who are not to be considered citizens of Israel.
And I do think public international perception of the latter point is totally skewed anyway; too many national agendas. Germany, for instance, would feel so relieved if they could identify Israel as another nazi state.
It's important to point out, additionally, that Israel never has had any genocidal intentions towards the Palestinians - if they had wanted to wipe them out as an ethnical group, they could have done so long ago already. Vice versa the same does not seem to hold true, a lot of agendas of the terrorist palestinian organizations which received major support by the population explicitly stated that their goals included "driving the jews into the sea" and other ethnical cleansing terminology making clear that their intifadas weren't just about combatting Israel but wiping out all jews (at least on "their" territory of course) which practically served as a justification to include Israelian civilians as their targets.
Maybe I should mention that the reason I am in support of the existence of Israel is that it seems to be the only guarantee there can be for a prevention of another Churban taking place in history.
>>3 "It's important to point out ... never has had any genocidal intentions towards the Palestinians"
The extremist settlers would probably disagree with you on that point. Moreover, the Palestinians aren't being anti-Semitic; they wouldn't kill a random Jew in a bar in Britain. They want to kill the people they recognize as invaders.
One of the main problems of discussions about Israel is the difference between hating/disliking/etc Israel and hating/disliking Jews. Although most inhabitants of Israel, excepting the Arabs, are of Jewish culture and religion, many are secular as well. The government of Israel, unlike the United States, recognizes Judaism as a state religion.
>>4 Who/What is Churban?
Sometimes I just do not understand why can't Jews and Muslims just live side by side in a multi-cultural nation.
I think the world had spoiled the Jewish people when they gave them their own state.
> I think the world had spoiled the Jewish people when they gave them their own state.
Oh, how generous of the world.....
rolleyes
The Israelis fought hard for their state. Nobody gave it to them.
>The Israelis fought hard for their state. Nobody gave it to them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan
The Israelis fought hard for their state WHICH THE WORLD GAVE TO THEM. Yes, they had to fight their arab neighbours, but that doesn't erase the UN resolution from history.
> WHICH THE WORLD GAVE TO THEM
> Oh, how generous of the world.....
>Nobody gave it to them.
I think it was theirs - obviously the UN doesn't have "UN territory" to partition and give away. Short of giving away antarctic territory or moon territory, there really wasn't any territory that was "UN's" any more than that one.
I should probably point out that:
>I think the world had spoiled the Jewish people when they gave them their own state.
was quite the idiotic thing to say - I fully agree on that.
Certainly, Israel hasn't been an easy thing to build or even keep alive. Still, it was given to the Jews as much as it could ever be given - there was only one location for it, which unfortunately was also the only location for other people. The UN negotiated and voted for an as good compromise as could be made.
Sure, we can define the land as ungivable and therefore say that it wasn't given. With an UN resolution passed giving the jews certain land, and that land still being in their use, I fail to see it as anything more than a random metaphysical question though - on the Politics side of it, there was definitely effort. I think the bad part is the probable background of guilt needed for that effort.
Whichever the point if whether Israel was truly given or not, the main problem is that Jews don't want to live along side Arabs and vice versa.
Why can't these people just live side by side and be at peace once and for all? All these religiious shit that both sides keep preaching is totally pointless.
Who's preaching? AFAIK, Judaism is one of the few religions that does not entertain an idea of missionaries.
I am not really seeing any sort of religious antagonism in Israel/Palestine. To me it's more some sort of economical quarrel, mostly connected to Palestine's "youth bulge" demographical problem.
>>15
To the other muslims nations they think the Israel/Palestine issue as a religious thing.
The with Israel is that they feel that they have the right to enforce military strength after a suicide bombing.
Instead of like other countries that do investigations etc. They just go tank-happy into Palestine land.
> Instead of like other countries that do investigations etc.
Now how would you do that, considering the terrorists mostly hide in territory that is not controlled by Israel, does not fall under its jurisdiction and most of the time aids the terrorists?
>> They just go tank-happy into Palestine land.
I couldn't say this better myself.
>> Now how would you do that, considering the terrorists mostly hide in territory that is not controlled by Israel, does not fall under its jurisdiction and most of the time aids the terrorists?
Isreal Controls(ed) the Gaza Strip and West Bank (For the most part Gaza has been given over to Palistinian control, but for how long will this last?) The terrorists primarily responsible for attacks in Isreal (Save the rare occurance that a foriegn group ie: Al Queda, or somthing of the sort) steps in and starts their own fight) as I was saying, most of the terrorists live in Isreali Controlled Palistine. They were forced onto Refugee Camps in Gaza and the West bank, because their homes were destroyed to build more Jewish Settlements. Though there is ample space outside these two territories. It seems they would rather attempt to push the Arabs out completely. I find this wrong.
The UN basically took the Nation of Palistine away from the Arabs who had called it home, and gave it to the European Jews who had migrated to what is now called Isreal after the second world war.
Let me put it into a theoretical aspect for you. In the effect of all these gay marrage bans across America, say you lived in San Francisco. 80% of the gays across the country then decide "Screw this." And all move to S.F. Then, the UN steps in and says "Ok... This is no longer a part of the United States, but is now yours. Handing that area over to the gays. (Mind you, I am not against homosexuality, its their choice to who they love, but this is only an example) And now you have been ousted from your home and pushed to a refugee camp. Would you not want to fight for your home? Would you not want to get your way of life back? That is the view of the Palistinians. They dont have any other way, they dont have the chance to organize into a full out military, so they use Gurella (sp?) tactics in the sense of Terrorism. They would rather stand and fight, rather then run off like a dog with its tail between its legs.
And the one thing that angers me the most, One Palistinan suicide bomber blows himself up in Jerusalem. Kills three Isreali citizens. Within 2 or 3 hours of the attack. The Isreali military launches a missile strike on a refugee camp or two, killing nearly 100 people, including Women and Children. Is this fair? No. This is Genocide, but the world looks the other way. I support a free Palistinian state, And would like to see them either as an Independent nation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, or see the original Nation of Palistine return.
When a country is initially populated by people who just barely survived a genocidal massacre the likes of which the world had never seen, based entirely on the concept that said people are an "inferior race," those people might have a few issues that might carry over to the next generation. Just a hunch. I don't know.
Anyway, pretty much everyone in the world has been using Jews as scapegoats and the target for all their violence and rage for thousands of years now, so I feel like I ought to cut them some slack, considering the long history of hate and violence their ancestors managed to endure.
I agree that the Palestinians should have their own free state, I just don't think that the creations of such a state should involve antagonism on either side.
I dont use jews as a scapegoat, I see it how it happened. Yes, they barely survived the holocaust. But now they have stripped the land from another soveigrn nation, and taken it, and are trying to push another religious people out of that land, much like they had been pushed and isolated in Europe. Who is to say if isreal gets a bad enough leader in, it could become a massacre like Germany was. Is that what it will take for the UN to say "Whoops we fucked up!"
I'd like to point out that the Jews, according to their own sacred texts, have no place in Israel at the moment. The last time Israel was taken from the Jews, it was written that God would deliver them to the holy land when the time is right. Unless you think the U.N. is God, the Jews are nothing more than hypocritical squatters.
That's the most ridiculous statement I've heard all day. Congratulations!
>>20
I don't think it is right to say that we should forgive people for crimes because their ancestors suffered.
But is it wrong to forgive and return the land to people who currently suffer? who currently are being oppressed? or just let it continue because "Isreal spends money buying military equipment from us"
No religious group, no ethnicity and no subculture deserves its own land.
If you can't share, get off the planet.
Jewish settlers were in Palestine long before the UN passed its mandate. They bought up shitholes from Arabs who didn't want them and turned them into the best land in Palestine. They literally built modern-day Israel.
Even at the time of partition both Jews and Arabs were loggerheads. Nobody wanted to be with the other. This conflict isn't about land, it's just about hate. The victims are moderates caught in the crossfire.
>>20
Idiot, most of the IDF are of the new generation, why are you excusing them just because daddy/granpa might have been locked up behind camp bars? It's ultimately their choice to obey the order to become Ridiculous Asshats. They should accept full responsibility. There's no political, ideological, or economical movement that could be affecting their mindset as there was during father's time. The refuseniks have the right idea, but their influence is spreading too slowly. It'll be another decade before there's a large enough dissension to begin making an impact.
tldr version: I agree with 24 but want to beat your head in for that thought even crossing your PC jumbled mind.
On the topic of tolerance, fun fact: Judaism is illegal in Saudi Arabia and Jordan, Homosexuality is a capital offence in Saudi Arabia, and then theres that whole "womens' rights" thing.
Isreal has a history of overreacting to terrorism, but the truth is that its still a fuckton better than any other country in the region, and there wouldn't be a problem at all if the rest of the region weren't backwards asshats.
Hey man, they were warned about what would happen if they worshipped idols of wood and metal. They didnt cease and Babylon crushed em, they havnt been the same since.
Perhaps the Iranian president has good ideas? Send all the jews to greenland, or another empty land. Just allow them to take along their wailing wall.
Also, since there are all these problems with 'sacred' places, why don't we do both parties a favour and blow them all to smithereens? How do you 'desacrify' a place?
---disclaimer---
this is not a rallying point
> Perhaps the Iranian president has good ideas?
He's the most entertaining nutball I've seen this year.
Too bad he's a nutball in power in an unstable region.