I certainly am. I also despise democrats and their left wing lies.
I would also like to add that Democracy(big 'D') is for the weak.
The uneducated masses cannot be trusted, multiculturalism is also for the foolish. I don't care how many illegals "just want to work, ese" and I don't care how oppressed certain segments of the population think they were/are.
All I know is, is that nothing is getting done by trying to care about society and populism. There needs to be a goal, a path and a means of achieving that goal and following that path. Schools need to be a place of learning, our militaries must be strong, hard, and well equipped. Our industries must be domestically run and produced, not given away to a bunch of goddamed Hindustanis, Middle Easterners, and COMMUNIST Chinese. I believe in trade between good, non communist nations of quality. Instead of schools being a place of "bling bling and spin rims" it needs to be of learning and pride and heritage. The American flag should fly high over every schoolhouse and English should be the ONLY language UNLESS you are being taught a foreign language. There should be tanks, angry men, and land mines between the border of the US and Mexico. If those goddamned Mexicans don't keep their own filthy pieces of shit inside their own borders then it should be considered an act of aggression and that should call for a Blitzkrieg response by the U.S. There would be no mercy. Mexico City should burn for the lack of curtailing their filthy invasion into our country. These unpatriotic and treasonous companies who hire these undermen should be taxed and indicted so severely that their great grandchildren's granchildren would still be paying their debts. Our Inner Cities should be purged of all drugs and criminal elements. No mercy for these cancerous tumors on our society. The workers and the skilled alike should be rewarded.
This cannot be achieved with bleeding heart communism. Americans should stand tall as conquerors in any land they go into, both FEARED, ADMIRED, and above all RESPECTED.
If you don't like it, you are free to get the fuck out and leave all of your precious freedoms here so someone else can enjoy them while you go off to some third world shithole and "stand for something" and be "multicultural".
Shouldn't you be drooling over at world4ch's /newpol/?
This board keeps hitting new lows.
It seems to be just one person. I'm gonna be hanging out at IAA until he clears out.
I,m not anti Marx and Renin.
We should respect them.
But all communists except them are all just Suck!
Their soul rots, and have no worth to be regarded as human.
There are no communists in Valhalla.
You take your goddamned left wing lies elsewhere.
Well, never mind all that, >>1-10. This has nothing to do with this thread, but would you just listen to me for a little bit? See, I went to the local Yoshinoya today. Right. Yoshinoya. And the damn place was packed so full of people, I couldn't even find a seat. So I looked around a bit, and I found a sign that said "150 yen off". What the hell is wrong with you people? Are you idiots or something? Any other day you wouldn't even think of going to Yoshinoya, but if it's 150 yen off, you all flock in here? It's just 150 fucking yen! 150 yen! And you're brining the kids too. Look at that, a family of four going to Yoshinoya. Con-fucking-gratulations. And now the guy's going, "All right! Daddy's going to order the extra-large!" Shit, I can't watch any more of this.
Yoshinoya should be fucking brutal. Two guys sit facing each other across a U-shaped table, and you never quite know if they'll suddenly just start a fight right there. It's stab-or-be-stabbed, and that's what so damn great about the place. Women and kids should stay the fuck away.
Well, I finally found a seat, but then the guy next to me goes, "I'll have an large bowl with extra gravy!". So now I'm pissed off again. Who the fuck orders extra gravy these days? Why are you looking so goddamn proud when you say that? I was gonna ask you, are you really going to fucking eat all that gravy? I wanted to fucking interrogate you. For about a fucking hour. You know what? I think you just wanted to say "extra gravy".
Now, take it from the Yoshinoya veteran. The latest thing among the Yoshinoya pros is this: Extra green onions. That's the ticket. A large bowl with extra onions, and egg. This is what someone who knows his shit orders. They put in more onions, and less meat. A large bowl with the raw egg, that's really fucking awesome. Now, you should know, if you keep ordering this, there's a risk employees might write you up. This really is a double-edged sword. I really can't recommend this for amateurs.
And you, >>1-10, well, you should really just stick to today's special.
Kiss my ass.
This about anti-Communism and how much I hate Mexicans crossing the border. Not some bullshit jap resturant.
True communism is a utopia. However, true communism is impossible as humans are right now.
DILEMMA
Communism is slavery. Democracy is for the weak.
I Vote for TRONDQN!!
Oh I'm sorry...is anti-Communism too real for you?
Is anti-communism crazy, or is it so sane that your head is spining!
....oh my god what a bunch of left wing assholes you guys are.
God go back to your starbucks and read your damn NY times paper and talk about Hilary clinton, who you love so much.
I'm crusading against communism and mexicans, so leave me be.
Hillary Clinton is a whore.
The NY Times is better off as toilet paper.
Starbucks tastes like poo.
Capitalism sill sucks.
DILEMMA
No YOU'RE a towel, a beaner towel
WTF you're nothing but a bunch of fucking left-wing liberals who are so far fucking left that the left liberal fucking left left fucking fuck liberal fuck.
The left wing lie I despise the most is when they say that the game is Battletoads when it is clearly Doom 3.
Communists believe that all materials belong to everyone in the society. It seems very logical, but I'd have to disagree on it. It all began with Karl Marx. =o
God you communists are commieying up my fuck-awesome thread!
gb2N.Korea assholes
I'm not Communist. More like anti-government altogether. It's still interesting to study the various types of governments though.
>>2 What the hell is your fanaticism with hatred towards Mexicans? Sure they are poor, will work for anything, and are coming in illegally, but you have to realize that they are human beings just as you and I. We are all brethren, disregarding "race" or color. Plus they are actually helping the economy, unlike the immense number of lazy Americans who do nata.
As for Democracy, yes, it is a VERY unstable government. I prefer a monarchy or dictatorship where there is stablility.
I am pro-communist. I am in favor of a worldwide communist dictatorship.
Communism is like heroin, at first it seem's really cool, but a year or so down the road, you start to realize how bad it is for you, and everybody else you know.
Actually, Communism is like sex; it might be painful, and awkward the first few times, but you'll get it right if you keep trying.
Communism is like an express train: It smells good, but you really have no idea where you'll end up.
ガツ！！！！！！！！！！！！！！！！！！！
I dunno, Marx saw the crap going on in the factories in Europe during the 1870 and 1890s. I can't blame him for wanting something that worked for the common man. Problem is people are greedy, even the common man. It's just hard to motivate someone when you tell them society benefits when you do more work and I guess you do too . . . in the long run. So will you please plow your fields? Of course you get paid the same s--- whether you do or don't but please? Will you for us?
Communism is sick.
There are no communists in Valhalla
There are so many communists in Hell.
you guys are retarded.. you make a b&w distinction between the left and the right. you live in a simple world and others suffer for your stupidity. think with your own head! don't be absolutely left or right O_O. you should see things as a whole.
b&w thinking is so american.. it's no surprise with shit going on in the world. where I live extreme christians aren't even funny cuz they are too openminded to argue with xD
Yeah...whatever communist.
>>45
So,What should I think about communizm?
Communizm was totally failed and sparkling jewel in the crown are just contamination human and radio sweeps floating on sea.
Regime with blood purge is good or bad?
Of course NON.
In my opinion
US Republicun party is good.
US Democratic party is no good.
Because,US Democratic party is too soft for chi-com and dictators of Middle East.
make no mistake,His policies are not perfect.
But regarding him as Hitler is too excessive.
Don't you think?
So,Why do you think Mr Bush is bad guy?
Tell me logical reason.
>>50
Making innocent people suffer in the Middle East and spending money on war on terror, while everything is not fine in the US either. There is a big gap between the rich and the poor. The problems in society are swept under the carpet. The rich elite are the only ones who benefit from this by making profit for large companies. Poor people in the US and Middle East are the victims.
He's doing the same thing as Hitler, but by different means and scale.
And so that some people are not mistaken.. No, I'm not saying people should own the companies (after all I'm not a communist!). I'm just saying they are too greedy for money and do not value human life.
Yeah yeah more Communist talk.
I'll take a Hitler before I'll take a Stalin or a Mao.
>>53
Stahlin, Mao, Hitler, Bush and extreme islam leaders... they do have 1 thing in common. Their followers are ignorant, fanatical idiots with no will of their own.
Why divide people in left and right when you can divide people into warm, human, friendly, openminded and cold, murderer, selfish, narrowminded.. (an example)
>Their followers are ignorant, fanatical idiots with no will of their own.
Actually, that statement pretty much covers anyone who holds any sort of political affiliation. Politicians are dogs and the people are sheep.
>>56
I think normally people don't just follow one politician blindly without asking why. People have to follow fanatical leaders because the society puts pressure on them.
Im anti democracy. For a start it dosent work - why should a majority of complete spastics have the right to decide my fate? Democacy is necessary but must be restricted via a constitution. Communism is a streak of piss. The majority of people in the world are stupid emotive bastards who dont know anything other than whats in their own little world.
Now,Communizm is dying or turning into aristocratism .
Cuba,that was tragedy.
I can't critisize cuban people who supports Castro.
They just hoped humanistic life and their children to have decent job.
The reason,communzsm cuba is simple.
USSR gave good life to people.
But as you know China,Cambodia,USSR,North Korea,
Communizm killed and lied and winded up.
If you wanted to know about communism,
Read "1984"
>>58
Would you prefer a minority of complete spastics, or a single complete spastic, had the right to decide your fate?
Why can't we just be fascist?
Workers! Drop your tools and learn to properly wield the bayonet! The coming struggle of class warfare requires that all members of the proletariat are prepared to die for the glorius cause of global socialism!
Most of you have no idea what communism is. The closest any nation has ever gotten to it is socialism. Even then they always get fucked over by a nation with more weapons. True communism, as stated up this thread is a utopian society. There is no government as we know it. There are no dictators. A communist dictatorship is an oxymoron. China and Russia have always been very far from communist. I despise political leaders who claim they are communist. Pick up a copy of The Communist Manifest, or read it online. It's worth a read , even if all you get out of it is a better understand of communism.
>>64
Communism doesn't doesn;'t work because it is a bad system, it doesn't work because it doesn't take into account the need for liberty. It just expects the military leaders who overthrow the government not to become despotic themselves, it ignores the self-evident and totally true philosophical precepts that make up democracy. Marx has a pathological hate of democracy because it wasn't perfect which persists today, he completely forgets that democracy never claims to be perfect and that no one is omnipotent and no one can ever create the perfect system. Democracy reduces the crime of tyranny considerably, but it doesn't reduce crime. The reason why the closest anyone has ever got to communism is democratic-socialism is because such nations were a democracy to begin with and had the stability to implement a few policies that are associated with communism, whilst leaving people to right to own property.
Long story short, communism is a policy, not a government system and the natural state of govenrment is tyranny and tyranny has little reason to implement communism as a policy, so come the russian revolution all you got was another tyranny.
>>64
You say communism doesn't work because it expects military leaders.... etc. Communism doesn't have military leaders. Like I said communism has never been seen in this world. Your arguement is against a form of socialism not communism.
>>66
Having a real communist nation would be a great thing. Sadly, I don't see how such a nation could ever be created or sustained. Humans are not made in a way that they will just accept that all other people should have exactly the same rights and property as them. When a communist system gets too big, it blows up and you get china or soviet russia. Once you need people who work exclusiveley to keep the System running, and people who control those people etc.., there will at some point be some people who abuse their power. Maybe, communism can work, but not on a large scale.
Communism can NOT work because it presupposes that I actually care.
Democracy is for the Weak. Communism must be killed on sight.
Hail Fascism. Hail the new dawn.
Communism is just for social insects. People are status seekers and will exploit any system to get an advantage for themselves.
In Capitalism -- you get screwed by the man
In Communism -- you get screwed by the government
In Socialism, it depends on who gets more power, but either way, you'll be dropping your economic pants for somebody.
In fact, as long as people are doing business with each other, someone will be dropping economic pants.
YOU'VE NEVER SEEN THE 4 STAGES OF COMMUNISM!
Communism implies that everyone is equal which is a contradiction with reality which everyone is not equal. The utopian society is just like the fountain of youth a pipe dream that drives humans mad.
Fascism hopes to destroy the preceived weak, corrupt, and undesired peoples within and outside its borders. It's fate is that it will be destroyed by those it hoped to destroy or enslave. If not now then in a thousand years. It will eventually be destroyed in the very game it initiated survival of the fittest.
Democracy's greatest strength is it's greatest weakness by giving all an equal voice regardless of class and educational level. If free loving people think with their heads the systems is difficult but it works. If people with a sence of entitlement become too corrupted and too many the system eventually collaspes on itself.
Anarchy which it has so many preceived ideals and definitions by those whom think it's a great idea for human society is a lack of a system that will destroy everything else until the Lord Humungus takes what is rightfully his by force.
>>72
so, democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried?
No not by far, democracy can become mob rule if it gets out of hand and be just as tyrannical as any form of government. A democracy with the proper rules and regulations on the government to form a Republic while allowing a free but competitive market and allow the people to decide their own futures despite social and economical backgrounds is a far better system than anything socialism, fascism, or anarchism could ever come up with in their doctrine. Government that is given permission by the people to carry out local, state, and national interests such as trade laws, road construction, and national defense is still accountable to the people should the government try to take power. Democracy can fail but when it's done right the people retain the right to own property, self defense, form the government, and freedom to travel. If you had read my statement all of the other systems Communism, Socialism, Fascism, and Anarchism are doomed to fail where a properly formed Democracy that fully protects human rights has the better chance to survive if the people take their responsibility to themselves and their country to heart it will last as long as the fire of freedom burns. But if there is no upkeep and the fire burns out then they are left to wander in darkness.
That's quite a lot of words you used there to say "I didn't get the joke, which is ancient and well-known".
the creater of this topic supports fascism, and hate the idea that people can disagree with him.
Quotes are fanciful but only a small part of a whole person and their ideals. Too often, quotes are abused by those trying gain the moral high ground with weak arguments. Plus it helps that a passage be attributed to the quoted person otherwise there is a risk a plagiarism resulting in a weaker position.
>>74
I wouldn't say that either fascism or socialism are "doomed to fail," partially because neither is very well-defined but also because there's no evidence of this. None of the socialist states of northern Europe are failing in any sense, and I can't think of a truly fascist country that wasn't defeated in open war.
when we read what the governments of USSR and allied nations did to their people during cold war, the notion we get is "Communism is the worst form of governance". But was that really communism, i doubt, just because some government puts on a Comm. tag we cannot call them communist.
What is Communism- It simply is Rule by community, an individual has nothing there is no government, no ruling body exists in communism and there is no dictator, USSR and allied nations violate this they are nothing but a distorted form of communism, distorted socialist nations nothing more and nothing less.
Communism is no evil it was a solution to world governance problems someday, as most of the premitive societies were communist in nature and there are still some societies that are truly communist. The notion of private property has been ingrained into our mind and certainly communism is not a current worlds economic solution. But we never know it might become someday.
and i am no anti communist and i hate fucking Soviets and Maoists
So if Democrats are Communists, what does that make Republicans? anarchists?
>>84
The wealthy men and religious leaders that Communists would imprison or murder should they violently seize power.
Fuck Communism.
Fuck Democracy.
Fuck Fascism.
Fuck anarchy.
Hail Capitalist TechnoImperialism.
I personally, wish people would give China an easier time. I think they're doing an exemplary job of reforming and developing their country into an open, wealthy, progressive, and technological leading nation, bit-by-bit, despite their potentially cumbersome single-party government. I think this last one too, has the potential to be reformed and developed into something more liberal and democratic, and it is, slowly, peacefully. I say give it time. I think China knows what's good for China, and for the rest of the world.
When you consider how dangerous and violent liberal democratic republics and constitutional monarchies-turned fascist have proven themselves to be or become, over the past century, it's stupid and hypocritical to be suspicious of China just because of its relatively stable and recently successful (oh how frustrating) single-party govt.
It's not like a Democracy is inherently safer or "better".
It all depends on circumstance.
My biggest worry about China is energy use! From what I read, they are an environmentalist's nightmare. And that while still being a "developing" country... It has the potential to get much, much worse.
I hope China can "develop" without reaching the insane per-capita energy use of, say, the United States. If they do grow that energy-hungry, our planet will be charred ashes.
BTW, I haven't done much research on this, so if anyone can authoritatively (citing sources) either agree or tell me to get lost, I'd love that. I'm just going on a bar graph I saw once.
Well, like it or not, as a planet, with our current technology, if we want to improve our standard of living for the billions of people who are still in the developing world, that means a massive increase in emissions. I don't think we can get around this, not yet, which is why placing fierce priorities on capping emissions now when we desperately need to increase them seems a bit quaint. To a certain extent, asking a country like China to curb its emissions is like asking sweating workers to stop breathing.
That said, the energy-use-per capita of the US is much bigger than it has to be. Smaller houses, smaller cars, smarter electric use, and maybe space heating and good insulation, and less wasteful industrial processes, (there's always room for improvement) And we've got something much more sustainable.
I'm ironically anti-communist.
Regarding this current discussion, if it's possible to sustainably bring China and South Asia and Africa into the first world, then let's. But if it isn't, fuck 'em. Why would we want to ruin everything? That's not compassion, it's idiocy.
Anti-communists rarely know the meaning of the word.
At the end of the day,
isn't that true of most anti-'s?
This thread is filled with siberiatic tenderness of comrade Stalin.
COMRADE! YOU KNOW ABOUT KGB?
NO COMRADE! I DO NOT KNOW ABOUT KGB
YOU LIE. TAKE COMRADE TO SIBERIA PRISON
Fuck Communism.
Fuck Democracy.
Fuck Fascism.
Fuck anarchy.
Hail Capitalist TechnoImperialism.
this is no a meme, I agree with it.
Communism created Zangief, dude. That's AWESOME.
>I certainly am. I also despise democrats and their left wing >lies.
They are not Communists, no Communist supports Dems. Just because there's a little economic intervention under Clinton does not make him a Communist, any more that Bush's infamous foreign adventures make him a Fascist.
>he completely forgets that democracy never claims to be >perfect and that no one is omnipotent and no one can ever >create the perfect system.
Communists are not utopian. I have seen no Communist that claims to solve every problem, but it's better than what the Capitalists have come up with; contrast China's development of Africa with the Western Liberal foreign aid, which tends to end up in the hands of warlords. One could even say that your "Democracy" is utopian itself.
>So,What should I think about communizm?
>Communizm was totally failed and sparkling jewel in the crown >are just contamination human and radio sweeps floating on sea.
>Regime with blood purge is good or bad?
>Of course NON.
Because everybody knows that all Capitalist revolutions were peaceful and democratic. 9_9
Lenin lived,
Lenin is alive,
Lenin shall live!( ・-・) Cold, lost and alone
A lone troll grows into bloom
>>1 is DQN
leftists hate freedom
vast commie conspiracy
logic is flawless
Well, yeah, the people who most stridently trumpet for Political Correctness do hate freedom.
i hate you pee see
let us say 'nigger' freely
and ban flag burning
men are good at heart
give them equal salary
why are we all poor
we are free to choose
we are the greatest
why is there no peace
we are free to choose
we are the greatest nation
why is there no peace
Argument between
commie and classical lib.
Just what makes a right?
I'm a communist. Hi.
>>109
Good question. According to the logic of nearly everyone in the center and on the right, and a good portion of the left right up until the end of the Great War and for a while thereafter agreed that international peace would be attained when the world powers were fewer in power, as there would be fewer conflicting national interests.
Hitler said he was fighting to create a world that could sustain peace, as a powerful mononational Germany with a primarily agricultural and locally fed manufacturing economy extending across Europe and without nautical ambitions would supposedly have no conflicting interests with the other nations; Italy's interests would be in its natural domain around the mediterranean, Britain's across the seas, and Scandinavia and France local. This makes sense, though it is unreasonably cruel to the populations he meant to let die out. Say what you will about him, but Hitler was skilled at reading political winds.
And yet as power consolidated in the hands of the West after the dissolution of the USSR conflicts seem to have <i>increased</i>
>>111
Be careful you don't say that in a position of power. Even today the US government and its little friends all fear revolutionary ideologies, and people who make it clear they do not agree tend to be neutralized if they hold any power, or if that fails have largely unreported accidents.
>>112
Well, I'm glad I live in Scotland then.
I don't think I would get involved in party politics if I was in the US because it just wouldn't be worth it, whereas here the party I'm a member of was in parliament until it split in two.
> Hitler said
I'll just leave this as is and let everyone see what's wrong on there own.
> international peace would be attained when the world powers were fewer in power
Well, it is pretty quiet now...
> And yet as power consolidated in the hands of the West after the dissolution of the USSR conflicts seem to have <i>increased</i>
...if we consider not number of conflicts, but intensity and casualties.
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/war-list.htm
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm
GO TO HELL, CHINAZIS!
Free Tibet, & china Free!!
What's with all this "THE SKY IS FALLING" nonsense? There will be wars here and there, economic depressions and groups will convince themselves they are oppressed, but history has always slowly improved regardless. The most major events in history have been irrelevant on the larger scale of things. If Marx and Engels didn't invent communism someone else would have generated a similiar mysticism and people would use them to rouse peasants into rebellion, as has been done thousands of times throughout history beforehand under different banners.
What are the theorems of communism considerred intellectual anyway? Rich people own everything? Poor people have to work for them to earn enough money to eat? Excuse me whilst I jerg my rank nice and hard at how superior in intelligence I am for noticing this.
>>117
Because communism isn't the big deal people make it out to be.
wat
>> because communism is my sex
Communism is fundamentally based on a lie. The lie is that one man owes another for no services or goods. Essentially communism is slavery. Thus I'm against it.
>Mexico City should burn for the lack of curtailing their filthy invasion into our country
What makes the paranoid rant by >>1 so funny is he doesn't know how many south-of-the-border illegals are from parts of the Americas besides Mexico.
>The lie is that one man owes another for no services or goods.
While I'm not a commie myself, I'm pretty sure you just made that up.
People who feel strongly against any one thing will play with words to create an strongly negative image of that one thing.
i'm ok with communism as long as
>People who feel strongly against any one thing will play with words to create an strongly negative image of that one thing.
Of course - they do it to reassure themselves that they're right. We all do that sometimes.
Um.. Under communism you can literally do absolutely nothing for the economy and still get paid the same as everyone else. Don't tell me no one will leap at that opportunity or that "social shunning" is enough of a deterant. The slackers will simply band together and form a community of their own occasionally venturing out of their shanty town to consume other people's produce.
I'm all for some of my tax to pay for orphanages etc... but communism is ridiculous.
I'm against communism, but not necessarily from an economic standpoint. The thing is, Communism is inherently and violently egalitarian, and thus hods back human development. The fostering of a heroic elite is necessary to encourage intellectual and cultural, and moral growth.
Hey idiots. What's going on in this thread?
Having a little chat about Communism, huh? Well, here's the thing. Communism would work just fine, if it was adopted as an economic model by the willing. In fact, through Communism, those groups that espoused it would almost certainly thrive and excel due to specialization and shared expenses. Thriving in an economy forces others to adapt and follow your example or become extinct, and thus you lead by example. The reason every communist state has become a totalitarian hellhole is because when you force communism on everyone, you necessarily take away their most basic freedoms. Thus, there is no barrier to prevent the loss of those freedoms.
This is such an obvious truth, when you break down everything to its component parts and logically examine the consequences of these systems. There is so much blowhard rhetoric, that people think Communism is naturally opposed to a free market or capitalism. Not so. Capitalism is simply the system arising through emergence based on the simple and unavoidable law of supply and demand. You must recognize the ethics of greed, and embrace it as a constant, reliable force with which to uplift Humanity.
Communism is not a political ideology. It is an economic model to enhance and improve the quality economies, if only it were to be applied correctly...
Get back to me when Communism's been successfully demonstrated on a grand scale.
I think moderate social democracies is where it's at. Unlike Communism they're not a pie in the sky.
>>129
>>130
>>131
All true. Communism fails.
That said the mentality behind communism is exactly the same behind many liberal "social engineering" projects. For example why do they think "celebrating diversity" will stop people being racist? It won't, don't be retarded.
If your dog takes a shit on the carpet you thwap it once with a thin stick, show it the poop and shout and scream making it realise what it did was wrong. It won't do it again, problem solved. The liberal looks at the same problem and blames the poop and throws it out and when the dog keeps shitting on the carpet and thinks it's his toilet because of the shit filth stank filling their home the liberal blames evil capitalists and starts crying. See? Liberals just can't distinguish between cause and effect. Of course a liberal does not do this in real life because it's too obvious, but in politics when things are less obviousthe liberal has free run and goes right ahead and does such things.
We could simply ban liberals from politics, but that would simply mask the effects instead of targeting the cause. The cause would be education, to teach people about logic and cause and effect, but much like atheists trying to keep creationism out of classrooms liberals hate the idea of teaching psychology and logic in our schools because it contradicts the teachings of their gospels.
We have quite a problem.
>>132
It works because people can vote it out when they realise it fails.
What is "it"?
I would argue that Liberals never actually "think" but rather "feel" about how the situation should be. It's hard to actually be Conservative, because you'll ultimately look like a douchebag by trying to argue against Socialized Medicene or Welfare or the Illegal Immigration problem. Suddenly you're a bad person for trying to justify the unfeasibility of a national healthcare system.
Yes, giving everyone excellent healthcare treatment would be wonderful. So would giving everyone $100,000,000. Never mind the fact that the value of a dollar would plummet even further and we all would be screwed in the end. At least would all be 100 million dollars richer. The only way it would work is in a dream.
Honestly, I'd argue if you have a functioning brain, you'd probably be an atheist and a conservative. But that's just me.
Well, here's your chance, >>138. What's wrong with universal healthcare? And is the only solution to its shortcomings throwing the whole idea out?
I'm against both Communism and Capitalism. Neither one truely works in the real world.
>>140
This!
>>138
I would definately fall into what people call"liberal" classification (my views on gun control aside). I will also have you know that Universal Healthcare does not harm us in the end. We have the money. We just waste it all on an excessive military budget rather than making EFFICIENT use of a much smaller military budget (which would still dwarf all other military budgets even if reduced by 80%). How is it that we spend half a trillion dollars a year on military (not counting the extra money requested as part of other laws) and yet we still cannot do what israel does with 9 billion? So we dont need 480 billion dollars a year spent on the military. we could live with a military budget of, say, 90 billion. That leaves us 390 billion a year. half that figure would more than suffice for basic health care for every citizen. And yes, i did say citizen. That should be something only Citizens get for free (incidentally, this wet-foot, dry-foot shit we have with cuba is stupid. They should get in the same way everyone else has to). And before you start crying and baawing about how that makes medicine inefficient, i never said we should eliminate private insurance. only that the basics should be covered by our government. This leaves you the option of waiting in line for health caare or going to a private doctor and spending a fortune. You know, same way if you are arested, you can get your own lawyer or get a public defender.
>>141 continued
So universal health care is not a pipe dream. It works and it is a smarter use of money than sending our men and women in uniform to the desert to become 6000 years ago and has not had a functioning society since the crusades. Thats their shit to fix. Go figure. Conservatives tend to think its our job to police the world, even though logic dictates that it makes you look like a nosey prick.
As for welfare, its a mixed bag. There really needs to be an income floor. Welfare (ie the dole) is a lousy system but its better than what they do in third world countries (let the people starve). If you want less welfare, make more industrial jobs and actually start producing things. It is the government's job to do things like wellfare to protect the average citizen's right to live (by providing them the bare necessities of food, shelter, clothing, and water). The problem is in the job market. This issue is not a matter of "feeling whats is right" but rather an arguement over what is the government's responsibility.
as per your claim about giving everyone 100,000,000, we coulda have done that for 3900 people each year for the past 6 or 7 years we have been in iraq, instead of fighting this pointless war by diverting said money out of the military. Each year you could have raffled it off to a different 3900 people by social security number. no THERE is a fucking stimulus package. Thats not inflation as it isnt minting more money but rather diverting funds. and you better believe that is 20 homeless dudes just got $100,000,000 tomorrow, they would be spending like a mofo, which in turn, means more jobs and more money in everyone elses pockets.
>>142 continued...
So thats what we outta do.
-Shrink the military budget down to 90 billion a year
-out of the remaining 390 billion, take 90 billion aside for social security
-take another 200 billion aside for national health care
I'm with you on slashing military spending dramatically. We spend more than the rest of the world combined and we don't even have any neighbors capable of harming us. But raffling money away? Not only would that never happen, but it's a bad idea. Just lower taxes across the board with the money saved. You don't need 200 billion annually to pay for health care. Most Americans are already paying private insurance companies for coverage, or getting it diverted from their wages. With single-payer healthcare, we'd actually save money on the increased efficiency. The taxation on increased employment would easily offset any additional initial costs. Not only that, but you could see up to 2% economic growth per year as well as the health care industry expanded. All that shit can be taxed.
We'd need to do something about the doctors throwing pills at everything, though.
I don't know if you noticed, but people tend not to spend the money they get from tax cuts. They save it. That's why tax cuts don't work. And if you dump 250,000$ on a bunch of people do you really expect them to spend wisely? I'm sure you've heard about what happens to lottery winners. How they end up worse off then they ever had been. They live beyond their means and pay for it when they run out of money.
We've already got a lot of people trying to live beyond their means thanks to our consumer culture. You couldn't give those people money and expect them to use it in a manner that would actually help them in the long run.
In theory a Nationalized Health Insurance Company might not be such a terrible idea. But where would these people go for health care? One would assume that those with money and better health care plans would have the priority for treatment and ultimately get better treatment in the end. Those using the State owned system would have to wait their turn.
Or would the government open hospitals or clinics to deal with these clients? Would Student Doctors be treating these patients?
Why not just have clinics make a workable payment plan for their patients, irregardless of their health care options, and then have the difference count as a charitable tax write off or something to that extent. It could be an option for doctors who would want to go that route and really help people.
Or they could just run a free clinic of sorts on their own volition.
> Welfare (ie the dole) is a lousy system
It doesn't have to be.
I quite like how Australia's Centrelink works: cheating them is a bit of a chore; it's easier to just get a job already (and more lucrative).
>>145
Ok so when it comes to tax cuts everyone is a saver, but when it comes to spending money everyone spends excessively? Not only have you neglected to provide any sources, but your facts change all within the same paragraph.
This reminds me of Morton's fork, another catch 22 used as an excuse to levy heavy taxes.
"The expression originates from a policy of tax collection devised by John Morton, Lord Chancellor of England in 1487, under the rule of Henry VII. His approach was that if the subject lived in luxury and had clearly spent a lot of money on himself, he obviously had sufficient income to spare for the king. Alternatively, if the subject lived frugally, and showed no sign of being wealthy, he must have substantial savings and could therefore afford to give it to the king. These arguments were the two prongs of the fork and regardless of whether the subject was rich or poor, he did not have a favourable choice."
I never said a damn thing about tax cuts. Most people don't save tax cuts. They use them to pay their bills, like i did. We cannot afford anything but what we already have. Those who get a decent sized tax cut are quite well off.They usually already make enough to pay their bills. They do, save their tax cuts.
Raffling the money away would never happen. I agree. It makes too much logical sense to happen. I care very little how the people spend their 250, 000. The point is for them to spend it, not save it. Thats why it would stimulate the economy. They would spend it. People who win the lottery live beyond their means because they quite their jobs. they do this because the ammount is big enough that they think it will last forever. a sum of 250,000 is not big enough for anyone to think they can live off of it. The lottery sydrome happens when you give someone 10Million dollares. 250k is barely enough to buy a nice house or pay off most of your bills and go to las vegas or disney. You, know. The things we want people to do with it.
As for nationalized health care, Yes, the government should open hospitals and clinics. The government should also open up Medical schools that accept anyone who passes the exam. This would actually drum up some doctors. Currently, the number of licensed doctors is artificially low because the boards that offer admittance to medical school purposely limit the number so they can keep their income high and their skills in demand.
the solution to both problems is simple and works hand in hand. Lower this number by letting anyone with the brains to become a doctor through a federal school at a rediculously low cost. The caveat is that after their normal medical training, they must work as a doctor in their specialty (if any) at a federal hosptial or clinic at the federal rate for 3 years and then Teach for another 3. This means that medical school will be next to free but the first year of medical care will be really low too. It also means that the doctors will teach toher doctors. Tis a breeder system and the only expensive doctors will be the batch that start the program.
You can pay the federal doctors the way you pay teachers. 6 years earning 40 grand a year. When they are out, they have 6 years of experience and can choose to stay and works as a doctor, stay and teach medicine, or go out to the private sector. Same way we do with other scientists who go to the military. or with pilots in the air force and navy.
>>140
So very accurate, there's a reason every nation on earth that is successful has some degree of capitalism and social within it's economic structure. Libertarians and Commies are the most childishly naive people on the face of the planet.
People these days like to buy a lot of things on credit. And I'm sure you've seen plenty of people who own expensive cars but live in shitty homes. People that have to have the iPhone or whatever gadget of the week it out but are swimming in other expenses.
They buy a bunch of shit and then use their "free" money to pay off the debt they owe for it.
>>150
If you want to force certain people not to make stupid financial decisions you have to apply the same rules to everyone else. If you think that taking money out of people's hands so it's harder for them to spend on alcohol and strippers and having the state pay for all their insurance is a good idea remember that YOU will be treated the same and have to pay heavy tax also. For intelligent people with lots of money it's better just to leave it all to market forces. They're not our equals so why should we be brought down to their level?
I'm economically socialist, socially extremely liberal. Let me lay out what that means.
Economically, I think that government regulation is very necessary, even if the regulation is lax. Redistribution of wealth is very necessary for a healthy and strong economy, but not to the point of a perfect even distribution like that in communism. It's as simple as this, if your paycheck is 3000 a week, your taxes should be higher than the guy who makes 500 bucks a week. I don't think, however that the money taken from Mr. 3000 should be directly given to Mr. 500, but instead should be pumped into the economy, education, green energy development, etc. I think the Government should exist to give everyone the same opportunities, and to raise the GDP (another reason I'm not a totally communist), a high GDP=high earnings and therefor there is less need for redistribution of wealth. Most of the government budget would be funded towards colleges, schools, science funding, green energy production and energy efficiency, increasing earnings down the board, job opportunities, etc. I'm a huge political geek I guess, I've looked over 90% of the federal budget, and revised it myself, and I've also looked over Obama's budget, and found it to be far more similar to mine (although far from the same in many areas). I've gotten the budget to a 50 billion dollar surplus per quarter. The tax increases were minimal, and limited. Mainly by readjusting spending to different areas and introducing many new, small taxes was what did the trick.
Socially, I'm extremely pro-freedom. I'm not held down by "tradition" that Republicans/Conservatives are so concerned about almost to the point of ignoring most other matters (like previous Coloradan Representative Marlyn Musgrave, who said that homosexuality was the greatest challenge the country faced in 07 I think, maybe 06). That means that if I had a choice about it, gay marriage would be legal immediately, Stem Cell research would be Government funded, etc. Although I do however take a slightly more conservative view of Immigration, it would be more difficult to enter the country if I had my say about it, illegally or legally.
Social Security is the first slippery steps to communism! Next thing you know there will be national health care and America will be no better than those cheese eating surrender monkeys in France!
> America will be no better than those cheese eating surrender monkeys in France!
Some might don't realize a nation does not surrender for the same reasons a human would for a task. A human would surrender for psychological reasons, which can involve logical evaluation. A nation surrenders when it is not benefical to do otherwise; and every nation would surrender once that is realized, therefore, in these grounds, America and France stand equally.
It was beneficial for the state to conscript all French men aged 18-45, instruct them to report to local police stations or remaining military installations to organise into para-military units, declare anyone who provides services or material aid to German troops to be a collaborator to be punished by summary execution by any French citizen with the means to do so and declare that the French civilian state can no longer function due to German occupation and full sovereignty over all of France is now in the hands of the French military and unconnected para-military groups which will be in a state of total war against Germany until they agree to an unconditional surrender.
It's not all that hard. Australia hands out $83 billion a year in social welfare and we only have 20 million people.
I'm a pure capitalist, so that pretty much makes it a definite "I am" from me.
>>157
I am also a capitalist, however I fail to see why the 2 are incompatible. They can set up their own communist commune under a capitalism because there is no property tax, once they own property they can do whatever they want on it and set up any business deal with their members.
There seems to be a lot of people having no idea of what communism is and still allowing themselves to post.
I wouldn't resist a Utopian Marxist Communism, but in reality I'm more of a fascist.
It goes against every principal of thought that our Founding Fathers brought into this nation. So no, I'm aganist it. It is interesting to read about it and discuss it, but in practice, it's horrible and ulgy.
Holy shit, I made this thread three fracking years ago.
I still hate Democrats and Communists. Probably much more now than three years ago.
>>162
The Commies have infected the Republican party as well. Well, at least 95% of it anyway.
It's hilarious to see how McCarthyism still affects Americans. Everyone who doesn't show his right-wing authoritarian biting reflex when hearing words like "health care" or "welfare" is an EVIL COMMUNIST.
Still, being a good EVIL COMMUNIST myself, I'd like to point out that there are also many intellectual Americans like >>159.
>>159 Is not an intellectual. He just has something called common sense.
>> 162
You're just a sore loser because Obama is president!
>>159
That article didn't tell me anything I didn't already know except that communism and all it's offshoots are more idiotic than I previously suspected. I used to think that it was a kind of natural order of things, what happens when the lowest classes seize power, now I realise it is more of a childish fantasy (much like how religion is misused) for propoganda purposes.
The Black Book of Communism
Nearly everyone in this thread is assuming that today's communists want to rebuild sowjet communism. They don't. You have some reading to do.
"Towards a New Socialism" deals with planning a modern economy with modern techniques. Keep in mind that it's from 1993 and imagine what a communist economy could do with today's capabilities that the internet, neural networks and powerful computers give us.