Talk about one of the most controversial anime here! Discuss whether you think the plot was great or it was just a depressed guy whining. Who is better, Asuka or Rei? Talk about how you loved/hated then ending(s)!
I liked the show.
i liked the show, i liked asuka, i hated the ending.
OMGZ TEH REI
I think it's one of these beautiful, flawed shows, like Kare Kano was, only better and more solid. I think, as a Superflat anime, EVA, like it's director, is probably the ultimate misunderstood show. And it just doesn't feel complete without watching "End of Eva". It's an apocalypse film after all, and Anno rather unnervingly, maybe terrifyingly, omits the actual apocalypse from the series, like some kind of twisted cliff-hanger. Don't be fooled by the music and the "congratulations" Everybody knows that was Misato's bloody body on the ground. It was kind of a cop-out ending without the "End-of" so I can understand if the fans hate him, but I think he largely redeems himself with the appended film.
I'd say it's a classic. There just aren't that many anime directors willing to screw around and try new things. Maybe Anno screws around a bit too much, like with other people's material in Kare Kano, but I still respect the guy as a funny satirist. In many ways, Eva is a gross joke, a good example of how anime no matter how rich, is a paper-thin, ultimately aesthetic, ephemeral, beautiful, and empty. So I hate it when the "fans" say such ridiculous things like that Eva is "deep". It's anything but. The whole point of Superflat is that it ONLY has a face value.
The fans may hate him, but it is definitely mutual. Really, End of Evangelion is Anno's big "fuck you!" to the otaku.
As for Evangelion being a classic, that's beyond obvious. It's still popular as hell over a decade later, and it's still moving immense amounts of merchandise - hell, you can find Eva figures in kombini these days. There's not a whole lot of shows with that kind of lasting appeal.
NGE fails as a war story due to the gigantic plotholes (like, for instance, why do the Angels attack one at a time instead of, ya know, maybe ALL AT ONCE?). As storytelling it jumps the shark in episode 21 and spirals down into the Black Pit of WTF, never to be seen again.
But the background is haunting and evocative, and the characters not only salvage it but put it on the short list of Best Anime Evar.
If you are male and under 25, you WILL fall in love with Misato, or perhaps Rei. If you are male over 25, you will probably fall in love with Ritsuko, or maybe Yui. If you are female, you're not on the Internet and you don't watch animoo so it doesn't matter.
As for the main protagonist, Shinji Ikari, he may be one of the more screwed-up heroes ever. He comes across as much more sympathetic in the sub than in the dub, by the way. And when you come to understand how much pain he is in, how hard it is for him to function at all (and in the sub, he does NOT whine constantly about it, you have to infer it, and it may take a while before you understand fully), watching him fight Angels to protect the people he loves will move you to manly tears. He is MIGHTY. And he is vastly more interesting than a generation of cardboard cutout mouthy idiot mecha heroes who came before.
And, yeah, episodes 21 to 24 were phoned in from Hideaki Anno's psychiatrist's couch. And episodes 25-26 were Gunbuster style, i.e., "oh shit, we ran out of time, money, and ideas all at once, oh shit, what do we do? I know, let's do a half-assed clip show with voiceovers of the protagonist contemplating his navel, and hope the audience will decide that it must be deep and symbolic." And of course EoE was Anno's one-finger salute to an audience that didn't play along.
It's a flawed masterpiece. It's not the GRATEST THING EVAR. But it's very, very good, and it is still capable of leaving people dumbstruck with awe. I mean, it's no Cowboy Bebop. But it will get inside your head and kick your head's ass.
After watching the ending, I was literally depressed for 3 days straight.
Yeah I like the series too, but after watching Ideon, you can see who stands on top. You'll see a lot of things that happens in Evangelion came from Ideon.
> NGE fails as a war story
It's not a war story. HTH!
I mean, it should be pretty obvious from the fact that they are never explained in any way that the angels really aren't very important at all to the actual story. A whole lot of Evangelion is just window dressing, really.
What the angels are, is a heirloom from the giant robot tradition that Evangelion both builds on and transcends. They're a silly cliché, which evokes memories of childhood wonder at giant robot anime.
For those with niconico accounts, the trailer for the first of the new movies is here:
Plus they have cool, evocative names.
There's definitely a lot more to Evangelion than "face value." And anyways, Superflat was an art movement that Takashi Murakami started long after the release of Evangelion.
Maybe calling it "Superflat" is misleading, since Murakami and his ilk really own that term. But I feel that Anno and Murakami are coming from the same place with this. Both have to do with the perversion, flattening, or abandonment of any kind of transcendent depth or meaning in their work. Like the 60's pop artists before them, EVA is kind of like a parody in the way it takes this rich Biblical lore and symbolism and "deifies" it as a kind of paper-thin, transient, pulp pop-culture. If there's any depth, it's to be found in the shallowness itself, or a kind of weird commentary on the nature of otaku culture or art in general. It's all in the surface technique and aesthetics, much like some excellent Floating World Ukiyo-e art. I think Murakami sees Superflat as a kind of postmodern Disney version of that Floating World sensibility. And when you consider Anno's other work it makes sense to put him in the same camp.
I think if you're desperately trying to extract anything BUT face value from EVA, you're kidding yourself. Because in this case, everything IS the face value, and it's not any weaker because of it.
Do elaborate. I mean, I agree that all the symbolism in Evangelion is entirely meaningless - Anno even admits so himself, not much you can do to defute THAT - but there is a real story hidden under all the meaningless decoration, about Shinji and how much it sucks to be human, and so on. It's not super-deep meaning or anything, but it's a bit more than "face value", I'd say.
Yeah, it's a good story, and there's a lot of rich things thrown in there from all over the map, Freudian themes, the primordial, cabbalah-esque human made in human's image, and so on...
But all these neat images and plot structures form a kind of convoluted hollow structure. The fancy plot devices are less of a skeleton to hold up the series, but like part of the surface decoration. The same way there are like 555,865,134... floating world prints that the depict the same themes, fuji, bridges, chrysanthemums, etc.
It doesn't make it any weaker because of it, I see it as proof that something doesn't have to be deep to be rich. Or that you can make a very rich story of value without having any "depth" or transcendant substance.
In the western tradition of art, we have a habit of trying to figure out what the films we watch "mean", always trying to peel off the "superficial" layer of what we see in front of us to try to find some kind of more meaningful core underneath. Shows like Evangelion, and just about every other anime, even the most "artsy" don't bother with that kind of mumbo-jumbo, I think Japanese art never has. So it's refreshing.
> ...there's a lot of rich things thrown in there from all over the map, Freudian themes, the primordial, cabbalah-esque human made in human's image, and so on...
>
> But all these neat images and plot structures form a kind of convoluted hollow structure.
Still, strip away all that, and I think you've still got something solid there. The characters, and their struggles. It would be a far more boring story if it wasn't dressed up in all the decorations and fireworks, but I still think it would be a solid story.
Boy Abandoned by father
Boy Meets father
Boy forced to pilot giant robot against will
Killing
Friends
Sex
Death
Apocalypse
Rebirth?
Yeah, I see your point, I guess you could say that about any good operatic story though, and any "apocalypse anime". What I asked myself while watching some of the slower, more drawn out, and rather vacuous parts is, does EVA take its story "seriously"?
I don't think it takes its story any more or less seriously than it takes the minute details in Asuka or Rei's character designs. Or the monotone, vacuous existential blabber in the final episodes. All the elements of the film are on the same level, they're all in your face and laid out before you. The hackneyed anime plot devices (although good and rich) are held by the same strings as the common, reoccurring Japanese sound motifs. It's all aesthetics. To say that the last two episodes are "empty" is like stating the obvious. They're not supposed to have any "meaning" they're supposed to just be cool, like most of the ideas in anime.
Anno takes this concept and he puts it on crack, effectively making us watch two hole episodes, and many segments, about nothing. He resorts to showing us ourselves as spectators in one sequence, and fans cosplaying in another. This is I think is what makes him a Superflat Artist, his work flattens out to the point where it spreads out into social, historic, and aesthetic commentaries, a little like Satoshi Kon and to a lesser extent Mamoru Oshii, and Katsuhiro Otomo who's Akira is probably one of the best "apocalypse films" ever.
I see a number of people complaining about the TV ending without really understanding WHY it was created. First, the studio was running out of money. Two, Shinji had a lot of emotional issues that needed addressing and the two final episodes neatly wrap that up (if you're actually paying attention to what's going on). It was an interesting way (for me, anyway) to end the series. For me, End of Evangelion definitely came off as a big "FUCK YOU!" from Hideaki Anno. I'd rather take the TV ending with it's blabber and WTF-qualities and optimistic closing than the movie, which slowly and mercilessly proceeded to kill and destroy the whole series.
That said, Evangelion's getting a remake! WOOHOO! I hope they close some plotholes.
Bah, you didn't get the OVA then. EVA is an apocalypse film. In apocalypse films, the apocalypse is supposed to happen.
And yes, I guess you could call it a big "FUCK YOU", but in a good way. The whole point of EVA is to destroy itself. It's the ultimate apocalypse film because it commits a kind of pop-art, aesthetic suicide, destroying all plot or structural elements in a way. It's all the more touching for the way the series was originally conceived as the ultimate "otaku" series. It draws the viewer in the way all good "otaku shows" do and then crumbles both the fictional world and the premises for the series.
It's a very sophisticated way to end a series IMO.
I wonder... at the end of "The End of Evangelion", when Yui says that everyone has the ability to come back, if they can remember their old forms and wish to become an individual again, how many people will come back to the post-apocalyptic world that Shinji and Asuka are plunged into? What will happen to them? The world looks totally barren now, so living will be a bitch...
I figured it was sort of an Adam&Eve type thing.
Also in Norse Mythology, when the Ragnarok apocalypse finally occurs and the world sinks into the sea, a single human couple is supposed to hide away in Yggdrasil, the ultimate, world tree, and come out at a later time, to reseed the world, supposedly, like a cyclical Adam&Eve.
You can't have an apocalypse film without an element of rebirth/feedback loop. Like in Akira, when the movie ends with the big bang.
>>Also in Norse Mythology, when the Ragnarok apocalypse finally occurs and the world sinks into the sea, a single human couple is supposed to hide away in Yggdrasil, the ultimate, world tree, and come out at a later time, to reseed the world, supposedly, like a cyclical Adam&Eve.
Not in all versions of the legend. In some, Odin, the Gods, the Einherjar, all the Heroes of Folkvang, all know they are doomed, all know they will lose against Loki and the Giants. Garm will devour the Sun and Moon, Jormungandr and Thor will kill one another, the Fire Giants will burn the World-Tree to ash. They know their fate and they will fight anyway, because it is their "wyrd," their fate-and-duty-and-doom.
Chilling, isn't it?
Doesn't Odin get taken out by Fenrir?
Seems kinda anticlimactic. I mean Fenrir's a pretty cool wolf, but I mean, we're talking ODIN here. You can't have ODIN get eaten by a wolf! That's so lame, the All-Father could run that fat dog through with Gugnir from a mile away.
I C U GUYS ARE TALKING ABOUT VIKINGS.
YES WE R.
The idea of the end of the world being cyclic, of the world being a Great Wheel, is very much an Asian idea.
Western eschatology (that is, thinking about the End of All Things) are more of a final ending. Ragnarok, Armageddon, etc.
And both of these influenced Hideaki Anno. Everybody knows he's Japanese. Not everybody knows that he's a BIG fan of American science fiction literature. "Instrumentality" is a word he borrowed and put into NGE just as a little shout-out to an American author he liked, Cordwainer Smith.
You have a good point, but I think the linear element of time you describe is newer than Ragnarok and other pagan ideas of the apocalypse. There's something very cyclical about the atrological world-view of the Greeks and other Mediterreaneans too.
A lot of that whole cyclical thing started in the Middle East anyway, in Persia, with the whole Zoroastrianism thing. I guess Westerners view Persia as being part of the "East", but Easterners view Persia as being part of the "West"! Poor Persians are stuck in the middle. Heheh, that religion also influenced the monotheistic Abrahamic views that would dominate the West for millenia afterwards.
So yes, everything comes from Persia, even ice cream.
From Iran west, man is of the world but also transcends the world, and the argument is about how best to adapt the world to man.
From India east, man is part of the world and the argument is about how best to adapt man to the world.
That's a gross overgeneralization, but gross overgeneralizations are fun!
I wonder if Hideaki Anno ever reads discussions like this. He must be laughing at us. ~_~;
>>27
"Fuckin' otaku. Y'know what? I'm gonna remake Evangelion just to rape your brain all over again. BEHOLD! REBUILD OF EVANGELION! Kefka laugh"
Yeah, somewhere along the lines, he's giggling to himself.
Honestly, I don't know what was wrong with the first Evangelion n' OVA, but I'm guessing he can only improve on the first model. The problem is then, when talking about it, you have to say "EVA the First" or "EVA the Rebuild" and people get confused.
There is no Evangelion "OVA".
>>30
"End of Evangelion" and that other one that doesn't count cause it's just a rehash of the show.
Movies count as OVAs
Especially a Movie divided into two Episodes like that.
Movies count as OVAs if their first release is on video/DVD.
Whoopsie, statement retracted
The best thing about End of Evangelion? The Happy Suicide Song. I love to sing this and freak out my co-workers.
>>38
"It all returns to nothing, it all comes tumbling down, tumbling down, tumbling down"
I had that song stuck in my head for days.
I hope they don't screw up the 4 movies. Its been awile since the EOE was released.
The first Rebuild movie comes out tomorrow~~! How long until someone releases a camcorder-ed version in torrent form?? How long until someone subtitles it??? My heart is all a-twitter.
>>43
Hopefully, it'll appear (subbed, naturally) on Crunchy Roll before ADV can snap up the rights in the US to it.
What the hell is a "crunchy roll"? Some kind of bottomfeeder site making money off other's work?
You don't pay for crunchyroll. It's the youtube of fansubbed, unliscenced anime.
>>47 has it about right. When it DOES get licensed, they almost immediately take the licensed anime down, giving only a few weeks notice to let people know to get it now or buy it later on DVD. It's actually a really nice site compared to most that do pirating. The owner is really good about taking stuff down on request, too.
crunchyroll always makes me think of poop
Yeah I just did a crunchy roll earlier. It was so crunchy I bled from the anus.
Its my favorite show. Just because of the art design, the characters and the over-all kick ass.
I want to see this movie but I'm in the wrong place at the wrong time.
This is what I liked about Shojo Kakumei Utena. The many ways you can use the term "revolution".
"Revolution" a cycle or "revolution" breaking the cycle.
Utena couldn't "bring revolution to the world", but she broke the revolution in Anthy's world and freed her.
I guess Utena is similar to Evangelion. Supposedly deep meanings are just musings on the surface, like "Hey, here's this theme. We'll give you ideas, images, but we won't explore it. We'll just let you do that."
Steals chord progression from Canon. Still a good song in my opinion but it pisses my friend off.
Note to any wanting to hear song: there is AMV for this song using End Of Evangelion. It is nice.
On a more relevant note, I was fooled into thinking that it was deep upon first watching. I quickly learned that this was not true in terms of symbolism and whatnot. However, if I learned one thing from all those classics they made me read in English, it's that such things as symbolism does not establish depth. Rather it is the experiences of the audience. While it is important to study what the intended meaning of something (or lack thereof)is, I find it more important and effective for each person to create their own depth.
Because of this I may see something as extraordinarily deep while my friends think the exact opposite. Eva is an example of this. I find its commentary on human nature to be very relevant.
tl;dr: Depth is relative and almost anything can be seen as deep by someone. Except maybe those teen movies. But you never know.
tl;dr: Religious offensiveness makes anime deep!
In all seriousness, though, the "Happy Suicide Song"'s official title is "Komm, susser tod" (though it is supposed to be "Komm, süßer Tod"; i.e., the umlaut is missing... the double s isn't necessary, if you know German). It means "Come, sweet death".
The title is a reference to Bach, even if the song isn't really. However, there are quite a few other Bach references, in Eva, and particularly in EoE.
I failed to capitalize the "T" in Tod. I shame my famiry! ;y=ｰ( ﾟдﾟ)･∵.
anyone seen the new movie yet?
NO BUT I WANT TO
WTF
>>58
I have no interest in the new movie, but I might watch it later now that I have it in my head.
Why do the Japanese think it's ok to keep NGE rebuild all to themselves???? the Koreans won't even get to see it till October 12th, and only at a film festival!
(>_<)
>>55
That too...
It's seriously time to move on guys.
>>63 Is it? Or are we supposed to let it fester within us until we finally have our vengeance?
I think vengeance is fun, so I'm going with that one. Enjoy your "moving on." Feh...
>>64 Damn I fail sage...
> official title is "Komm, susser tod" (though it is supposed to be "Komm, süßer Tod"; i.e., the umlaut is missing... the double s isn't necessary, if you know German). It means "Come, sweet death".
From dealing with uppercasing, lowercasing and normalising German strings, I have the impression that ß is a double-s anyway.
Yes, that's what he meant.
When is this show supposed to get good? I'm on like episode 10 and I'm still not interested yet. I thought this was supposed to be deep and full of awesome characters and shit?
You heard wrong man. I'm sorry for you. If there's anything that Eva is not, it's deep.
>>68
It gets much better from episode 13 or so to 23.
Also, you ARE watching the subtitled version, and not the horrible English dub, right?
the congratulations! ending was pretty good, every other shot at it get progressively worse.
I think people mistook [is that a word?] suggested complexity for depth.
Of course. I wouldn't watch an anime any other way.
So it turns out the first Rebuild movie sold about 220000 copies in the first week, completely crushing everybody else. That kind of sales for anime is apparently unheard of outside of Ghibli and Disney movies.
No wonder, really, Evangelion was amazingly popular, and the movie really is great.
And that's nothing compared to the number of pirate copies!
>>74
Heck yes! I can't wait for a state side release!
I just rewatched it, and I was really surprised at how uneven it is. Not in terms of quality -- I liked pretty much all of it equally, and the last two episodes or so weren't as insufferable as I had remembered -- but the tone of it really changes. Maybe it was my mood at the time, but the first two or three episodes were just incredibly depressing, and then Asuka showed up about five episodes later and it basically turned into robot of the week/comedy with some pseudophilosophy here and there until the end when it turned into gibberish.
OH GOD WHAT IS THIS I DONT EVEN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kVkpONyx5c
a cruel angel's thesis（Eng Ver.)/arlie Ray
I can't catch all of the lyrics.
Would you mind to write it.
>>80
I'm just writing down the lyrics.
some minutes later i can post it in this thread,but it has many lines.
Is it alright posting?
My unfluent English ... let it pass.
i'm so sorry.
writing the lyrics would be in other thread.
I see.
Would you introduce me other thread when you post lyrics.
If you should not post it, would you post the notepad written lyrics by Uploader in this thread?