I want more a discussion on theory on why Communism has failed horribly in nearly every attempt to institute it in the world. There are only a few Communist nations in the world. Cuba (Which is hardly staying alive) and China. I want to know you fine Citizens view on why The Soviet example of Communism failed so miserably.
Because Communism as a form of government is not communism, but rather an authoritarian dictatorship (or an STD, as my history teacher called them - socialist terrorist dictatorship). Dictatorship inevitably leads to abuse of power and corruption, and corruption precedes its downfall.
2GET
What >>2 said.
The failure of "Communism" (in the right-wing Newspeak sense) is the failure of authoritarian states with a planned economy.
"The Soviet example of Communism" failed so miserably because the Bolsheviks had control of the Red Army and thereby successfully supressed all actual communists. Around 1920 there were hardly any independent soviets (as in "worker's council") left.
The deeper problems were Marxism being the prevalent socialist doctrine, and Lenin's idea of a single party as "vanguard of the proletariat". So you ended up with an armed revolution and political and military power being concentrated in the hands of few party-leaders. The results were hardly surprising.
Furthermore, where your average capitalistic dictatorship has usually at least a semi-free market (the ensuing level of wealth alleviating the political oppression), the problems of the Marxist-Leninist dictatorships were magnified by the economic disaster of central planning.
"Communism refers to a theoretical system of social organization and a political movement based on common ownership of the means of production."
This was never achieved in history. In so-called Communist states a political elite (not "the people" or anything else that could be called common owners) had direct rulership over the means of production, therefore it is more correct to call these states "Socialist".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
Communism will never work because it is a form of anarchy , and all anarchys will end in caos and war.
For a country to work we need law's and somone to make shure they are used.
Thank ou for you keen insight into the absolute objective truths about human society.
China isn't communist. Communist rhetoric justified the Boxer Rebellion and the original Maoist government, but modern China is moving steadily into a freer and freer market (mostly because of the wild success of Hong Kong, which is one of the freest markets in the world and one of the most successful economies), which is antithetical to communist theory.
In fact, the economic success and freedom that is developing in the new China, and generally authoritarian flavor of Confucian-influenced East Asian culture, has mitigated a lot of the popular discontent there. The people can be rebellious, or they can make money, and Chinese people are too practical to be rebellious when there's money to be made instead.
Communism failed because of corruption. I used to be a Marxist myself, until I got off my high horse (when I actually went and looked through Soviet history), and realized that every society's downfall is due to the basic human instincts we all have: greed, envy, fear and decadence. Because the majority of people have at least a little bit of these traits (myself included), it is only natural and people who get into "power" over others become drunk with their own success and proceed to screw over anyone they please, simply because they can.
The utopia versions of the two main political ideals, Communism and Capitalism, are often what people automatically think of when the associated word is spoken; when a capitalist hears the word "capitalism", one would often picture a bustling New York scene with lots of money being moved around, people going to work, business owners and a strong economy with the freedom to choose where you work and how you spend your money. When a communist thinks of the word "communism", they would often think of a society where technology and innovation is slow, but the economy is sustaining. People would receive their food, property and such as long as they did the work that was assigned to them. General good-will to others, and the idea that your work is helping less-fortunate individuals become apart of the system and lead a happy, honest life.
In reality, neither of these visions is correct. As seen with the present Western Capitalist regime, corruption and greed has morphed it into a massive imperialist conspiracy, with the business owners buying and selling slave-labour on wholesale, giving their workers $7.50 an hour for retail and $10 an hour for hard industrial labour, and making the governments bow before them and instate laws like the DMCA to ensure that they control the freedom of what makes capitalism, capitalism. The money goes up the food chain consistently until there is a handful of people in control of 97% of the world economy and resources. This is what Marxists actively refer to as "class strugle", where the worker has absolutely no chance against The Mighty Capitalist.
In a Soviet Communist perspective, the corruption was apparent. Instead of the government being this benevolent force in the universe, ensuring that everyone could make ends meat, the government was so easily twisted and killed by Stalin. If you failed to meet an unrealistic quota, you were shot. If you met the unrealistic quota, you were used as a propaganda figure, and then shot out of spite. The main problem with the Soviet Communism is that it took Capitalism and gave it a sadistic socialist spin, which would be like burning the constitution of America and giving the government total control over all assets in the country. Lenin, after the revolution, actually realized what a massive fuckup he had commited, and then tried to rectify it by opening up the markets and trying to fall back on a kinder, friendlier socialism. Of course, before he could do anything, Stalin took power (Lenin himself said Stalin would be the death of the Soviet empire), and it was all downhill from there.
The problem I see with both societies is the similar aspect of people believing one is better than the other simply because of the amount of money they have. Who is to say that any wealthy Capitalist business owner or any Communist government leader is better than anyone else?
In summary, the Soviet Empire fell due to the fact that the style of government was a direct rip of a modern Capitalist government, with a dash of police state tactics. Capitalism will eventually fall due to the current sustainability problems inherent in 95% of all businesses operating tactics.
> and realized that every society's downfall is due to the basic human instincts we all have: greed, envy, fear and decadence.
Man, I hate dumbasses like you. Just because you fail to criticize a system, you fall back to the "human nature prevents it" stereotype. Man is both evil and good, that is his nature; man errs, that is his nature; man is shaped like G'd, that is his nature; man is a dumbass, that is his nature, the list goes on and on and you can describe every fucking phenomenon on earth and yet you still won't be able to properly explain them.
Fucking pseudo-intellectual half-assed humanist.
And then of course you go on and basically equal two systems, probably because you don't like either. But do you fucking know anything about them, except for the symptoms of basic incidents of injustice?
You have no idea how capitalism works. You have no idea how communism is supposed to work. All you have is the ramblings of a jaded Canadian who just started getting less pimples than usually and who happened to read one or two paragraphs of Marx (as evidenced by your laughable example for "class struggle" - the quotation marks really fit there!).
... So do you even understand that capitalism and communism are economic systems, not political? Or that there's a difference between them?
There has never been a proper communist economy; the closest was the Soviet Union, before it became evident that communism just wasn't working. It didn't produce universal prosperity, or even universal adequacy, as was the intent; it just produced universal, lockstep, egalitarian poverty.
Communism failed, and will always fail, because it has no incentive for personal achievement; someone living in a communist economy, no matter how well-planned, will never experience the direct reward for hard work, ingenuity, or just plain dumb luck that capitalism provides. Free market, unplanned, capitalist economies generate wealth, prosperity, and opportunity; yes, there's some problems, but no system is perfect. Just that letting the market take care of itself works far better than anything else we've come up with.
Just ask Singapore.
>There has never been a proper communist economy; the closest was the Soviet Union, before it became evident that communism just wasn't working
Lenin's "War Communism" wasn't working. Marxist Communism is unlikely to work ever. But their failure was and is central planning.
On the other hand the Ukraine and Catalonia did prove that that communism (as in common ownership of the means of production) not only works but can best the capitalist model.
>Communism failed, and will always fail...
>Free market, unplanned, capitalist economies...
You are equating communism with central planning and capitalism with a free market. That is not necessarily true.
>Just ask Singapore.
Just take a look at the first and second Five Year Plan ;)
And Singapore has quite a bit of government interference in its economy.
Where does one draw the line between a political system and an economic system? When enough rules and regulations do into an economic system, doesn't it become political?
Before people point out the failures of Capitalism, it's never been tried.
Capitalism as a government has never existed. And even the "leader of the free world" is a democratic republic, with a mixed economy. Far from Captialism politically and economically.
Many of the failings attributed to the free market economy are actually caused by government trying to regulate it.
>>11 is right. Communism wont work unless everyone allows themselves to be a slave to everyone else. The only way that will happen is with force. It's basic idea is stealing wealth from those who produced it and giving to those who didn't.
Capitalism allows everyone to succeed or fail by their own hands. It does not allow you to succeed by force on others. You can't steal, enslave or defraud. Niether can those who do not succeed. They have no right to the wealth of others. Capitalism is the only moral political system becuse it does not violate individual rights.
> Capitalism is the only moral political system becuse it does not violate individual rights.
Capitalism is an economic system. Did you read this thread?
Capitalism as government. Righto~
>Where does one draw the line between a political system and an economic system?
Political systems determine how the rules that make up the economic system are created. Wether to leave production and allocation of goods to the market or to a comittee can be determined by democratic means, by a dictator, by free consent, etc...
>When enough rules and regulations do into an economic system, doesn't it become political?
Only insofar as creation and enforcement of rules reflect the political system (e.g. a political system that wants a heavily regulated economic system is more likely to drift towards despotism in order to maintain this kind of regulation)
> Capitalism is the only moral political system becuse it does not violate individual rights.
If you think "moral" means "doesn't violate individual rights", you have a very strange view of the world.
I'll start: What are "individual rights"?
Capitalism is supposed to be amoral. The actions that the people practicing capitalism can be said to be moral or not.
>>16 Laissez-faire Capitalism is a political system.
>>18 http://www.capitalism.org/faq/rights.htm
You seriously think it's "strange" to say that not violating the rights of others is moral?
>Laissez-faire Capitalism is a political system.
No. It's the idea that a political system shouldn't intervene in the market.
And just as a reminder, the name of the laissez-faire poster child was Pinochet. You might want to reconsider your statement about capitalism being inherently "moral".
>>21, No, it's a policical system. Pinochet was hardly a Laissez-faire Capitalist. Free markets isn't all there is to it.
Look up Ayn Rand.
>Look up Ayn Rand.
I should have seen that coming :)
I also took a second look at your capitalisation. You are thinking of liberal capitalism. This kind of use of "Laissez-faire Capitalism" implies an inherent connection between capitalism and social freedom, derived from mythical natural law, but nonexisting in reality.
So, no, Pinochet wasn't a Laissez-faire Capitalist, but he was a laissez-faire capitalist.
What "mythical natural law" would that be?
>What "mythical natural law" would that be?
Assuming you're not being sarcastic:
Natural law theory is the idea that there are moral standards/laws that can be objectivly derived from nature. Natural law isn't made up by humans but "discovered" (Rand's "absolute morality" is an example of this). Then, one can "scientifically" derive natural rights from this. So (capitalistic) property rights come from the same infallible source as freedom of speech etc.
>Then, one can "scientifically" derive natural rights from this. So (capitalistic) property rights come from the same infallible source as freedom of speech etc.
This brings to mind some guy's "article" in Reader's Digest maybe ten years ago, which "explained" why the ten commandments ban communism. ; )
>(Rand's "absolute morality" is an example of this)
That isn't quite accurate since morality, ethics, and rights are human traits. They aren't discovered by humans, they exist because of humans. They are objectively based on the nature of man as a rational being.
Please don't fag up this discussion with Ayn Rand. Ayn Rand has as much to do with political science as an oekaki has to do with fine art.
A political system is simply a definition of the structure of government and its philosophy -- direct/pure democracy, representative democracy, monarchy, fascism, etc. Or, in the case of anarchy as a political system, the lack of government.
An economic system would be the definition and philosophy of structure and system of the economy. Communist economies, Keynesian or post-Keynesian managed economies, free market economies. I must note that a proper free market would be the economic equivalent of an anarchy; ironically, the closest we've got to a proper free market are under rather authoritarian governments -- Hong Kong and Singapore. In both cases, the government still steps into the economy; I confess to not knowing a great deal about how the post-British Hong Kong government meddles in the market, but I do know that the Singaporean government's efforts focus mostly on providing strict accountability for abuses of the free market, and on keeping the trade of one of the world's busiest ports on the up and up (i.e., draconian drug laws to keep the city from turning into a narcotics clearinghouse, since there's so many drug producers in the nearby regions). Compare and contrast this to the American government's brutally hamfisted approach to a "mixed" economy.
>The objective theory holds that the good is an aspect of reality in relation to man - and that it must be discovered, not invented, by man.
Does that ring a bell?
I asked, what are individual rights?
I don't know why I'm bothering, though, since you're now bringing up Ayn Rand. I was thinking this was a serious discussion, but apparently I was mistaken.
>Which is why Native Americans were so possessive and had such strict property ownership laws. ;)
That only proves that they were unnatural. Just like dem pinko commie bastids.
It's stuff like this which makes me glad I'm a conscientious hedonist. I'm not so much concerned with the fact that it's right or wrong than the fact that it feels unduly restrictive to me, and I'm nice enough to extend that consideration to others.
That and some things are just impractical. :P
>>1
Communism faild in russia because it was never really communism. It went from War Communism to Leninism to the New Economic Plan (which Lenin actually intended to be a temporary measure to restore russia's post war economy after pure Leninism wasn't working, too bad he was only in charge for 2 years before he died) to a power strugle to Stalin taking control and realy fuking things up.
BTW, isn't Vietnam still Communist?
>>15 Capitalism as a government has never existed
Capitalism, as in "do what is best for yourself, fuck everyone else" has always existed, but it is only recently (relative to the history of civilization) that the idea has arisen that this is in fact what is best for everyone, which is clearly contradicted by history.
Because the people who have attempted to institute "communist" governments in the world have all been shortsighted, petty dictators with no thoughts for anyone but themselves.
Communism was supposed to be democratic, not autocratic.
I the discussion up to now has taken too much of a capitalist view. >>36 mentions that
>>the people who have attempted to institute "communist" governments in the world have all been shortsighted, petty dictators with no thoughts for anyone but themselves.
There I have to disagree, because it has always been the people who gave rise to the arrival of a petty dictator. These people really did believe in communist ideas, and tried to live like communists, sharing everything. You can't see them now because they have become cynical due to their governments...
>>1 I believe the best way to see why the communist system won't work (if that is true, let's keep that option open) is by watching the Chinese government. It was them that decided to introduce a little capitalism, and right now they are fighting amongst themselves (the young and the old from 'the days') about how the state should be called and operated.
I'm a self-richeous humanist. I mean, it's not the fact that I've looked through the last five thousand years of recorded history and have seen nothing but corruption through and through, perhaps falling short of the "barbarians" or "uncivilized" societies, but those don't really count.
Every society has fallen because it has failed to take into account the difficulties surrounding human nature. Capitalism has rampant greed and corruption. Communism fell just the same. Communism COULD HAVE WORKED had the government been benevolent and perfect, but humans by nature are not benevolent and perfect.
Can humans overcome corruption, or so-called 'human nature'? Sure. Thats what the Enlightenment and Renaissance were about. But more often than not they become idealists and refuse to take into account that they are very much alone in their own right. It's difficult to shake a paradigm which has been indoctrined since the dawn of recorded history.
Humans can change. It's just hard with this homogenous meritocracy we have around us in every day life. From day one we're told to respect others and share, but as soon as we get through elementary school we're taught by the media that its "every man/woman for themself." Some people become afraid, some people adapt, some people corrupt and become politi monsters.
oh snap
True. The overall feel of communism is For The People By The People, but the problem of that is where do you start? People are going to feel a bit miffed when they are told that "for the betterment of their comrades" they can't have something or have only a certain amount of something so other people can have it. Ask any person in New York if they'd give a single mother on the streets that spare $20 they have in their wallet, and they'll say no. Ask any person if they'd consider getting a lower-end car instead of that new hotrod so more money can go to charity, and they'll say no. A few people might say yes, but the overwhelming majority would say no.
---
It should be mentioned now that I make no differentiation between Communism and Capitalism being economic or political ideals because Capitalism in itself defines a "free" or "democratic" society, while Communism defines a "socialist" or "authoritarian" society.
Capitalism: Freedom to work where you want, get what you want, when you want with nobody breathing down your neck.
Communism: Lack of freedom to do said things above, but assurance that if hard times hit you will be looked after.
Capitalism is (supposed to be) very much free. Communism not so much, but at least you have the knowledge that nobody in your country is suffering because of somebodies decadence. Thats how it's SUPPOSED to work, anyhow.
Because the people who had the power were all devoted to themselves, not to the people.
Marx's idea of communism was supposed to be a pure democracy where decisions were all made by majority vote, and where everyone got what they needed to survive.
This is precisely opposite of what has happened with the Soviet system and with other psuedo-communist regimes around the world.
They're ultimately just modern variations on Russia's institution of serfdom.
IIRC, Marx actually preached a large government which slowly became "unnecessary" in the long run as people became more socialist. E.g: It'd go from what we saw in Russia in the beginning of the Soviet Empire, to an ultra-libertarian socialist system.
Some thoughts on this.
-Pros
People would say it would stifle innovation and progress in humanity. To be honest, the advances of technology have been made off the backs of slave labour, so yes, it would stifle innovation. Also, the environment hasn't caught up to our progression, e.g: with the melting of permafrost and the knowledge that a hundred years from now we'll all be dead, etc. Slower progression is fine, by my standards, if it means people aren't suffering, or there's less of it.
-Cons
Idealistic. Big governments like staying big. In an idealistic situation, power isn't needed. But that isn't so. Governments retain power, as with the Soviet Empire, to the bitter end.
>>40
The large central government is more of a Leninist idea. Marx himself was rather vague about what the "dictatorship of the proletariat" would look like, but later instanced the Commune of Paris. (Ironically, the Commune can also serve as a counterexample to the Marxist idea of the necessity of a transitional period between capitalism and communism)
>People would say it would stifle innovation and progress in humanity. To be honest, the advances of technology have been made off the backs of slave labour, so yes, it would stifle innovation.
Historically, a freer society always was more advanced than a more oppressed one in the long run. Progress is not hindered by freeing slaves, but by creating them.
The postrevolutionary government, however, is merely a change of masters.
> Slower progression is fine, by my standards, if it means people aren't suffering, or there's less of it.
Imagine what the environment would be like if we were still in the industrial revolution today. Hoo haa...
I also can't see how slave labour creates innovation. If anything, wouldn't it have the opposite effect? What's the point of efficiency when you can just throw more slaves at the problem? And think of all that wasted potential.
>>42
The arab world made extensive use of slaves, and they were certainly more advanced than europe for several centuries. Its not a species arguement that a slave in arabia was treated better than a serf in europe, but europe couldn't import serfs to solve their problems the way arabia could with slaves, and still they faild to inovate. I don't think slavery directly hinders innovation, I think its just that nations that have it also tend to have other regressive policies that do (although as I stated above, not always.)
I fail to see why the continued existence of crime in societies which value liberty means that liberty is defunct. Anyone who has given politics some thought deems liberty as good everyone, unless the person in question has the sole purpose of doing good only for his despotic leaders.
Most native americans were assimilated into the settler's economy when they arrived, first through trade and then through actually cultivating tracts of land with white settlers aswell as marrying them and this continued long after 1775. It was those that were further away from the east coast were attacked by criminals, not by the government, they then retaliated against peaceful settlers who complained to the government who then set about subjugating them prompting further attacks. The government was more occupied with development and many of the revolutionaries who kicked the British out had an obsession with native americans and saw their culture as part of the grounding for a new American culture. The killings were instigated by whites, but by white criminals. If europe was populated by native americans and america was populated by hunter gatherer whites the same thing would have happenned, the determinning factor here is whether the person who saw native americans approaching his hut was a criminal or not. I doubt this person was a libertarian idealist or shot them because he was white or an american. He shot them because he was an idiot. Much like gang killings in Detroit are not perpetrated by people because they are black, but because they are idiots and liberals.
However Stalin starved and executed 20 million people intentionally because he believed in socialism and the same thing will happen if we let them get into power.
>>47
Looks like the the Internet Marine found out he can post with out a name.
> Anyone who has given politics some thought deems liberty as good [for] everyone
I fail to see what liberty has to do with an economic idea. It's not that they're unrelated, but the lack of one does not imply the presence of the other.
> he believed in socialism
I don't think he believed much beyond his own power.
>Much like gang killings in Detroit are not perpetrated by people because they are black, but because they are idiots and liberals.
pardon me, what are you trying to imply with that line. "liberal" != "idiot" you neocon troll.
#50's got a point. Most liberals wouldn't know what end of the gun to put the bullets.
youre not familiar with programming are you? ok i'll make it clearer because it wasn't a typo. "!=" -> Not equal.
btw, i'm a centerist liberal and an excellent shot on the range.
Hello statistical minority!
In that case do the rest of us a favor and tell your Reps that Handgun control INC and all the other whacko insitutions they aren't welcome on your side of the isle.
>>53 because im worried about handgun control when both sides of the aisle are working to help hollywood gain full regulatory control over our economy and personal lives via DRM.
>>54 because im worried about flood detection when Shii and Moot are working to help 4chan gain full control over our lives by DQN.
I fixed your post for you.
It boils down to this - you take away the ability to directly advance yourself through your own labor, and you take away the incentive to work hard or innovate.
Whole principle of communism is that people can't be lazy.
>>58
Elaborate?
>>59
If in communism everyone is to be treated equal, everyone must be equals. This means equal input/output to each citizen. If people are lazy, they are effectively not fitting that mold. I posit that the only way to attain a perfectionist's view of communism would be if we were to replace all people with souless robots.
Have you ever tried to actually find out what communism means outside of your head?