This is another topic to test the debate option of posting in 4-ch. Feel free to make your own topic of anything that you want to debate about, but please remember to use the [Debate] tag and, if you want, another tag at the end (e.g. [Morals] for what the debate is based off of).
RULES
-No flaming or trolling. Emphasis on flaming. Keep the argument down to a mild level.
-Back up what you say. I know it's hard for this, but don't just say something like "God is fake". Tell WHY you think God is fake, and use science to back it up if you have to. If you want to say "God is real", then the same goes for you. If you are going to use sources, then make sure they are credible, not just from someones blog (unless they source on that, and THAT source is credible).
-Keep this as mature as possible. This is basically like repeating the first rule, but don't let your emotions/beliefs get in the way of your argument. It makes you and your whole case look childish.
Abortion. Is it murder? Is it ethical? Should mother's have to have and care for their child no matter what? Is it circumstantial? These are a few questions to start talking about.
STARTING ARGUMENT: Abortion is OK because it is just the killing of a fetus, or the 'blueprints' of the actual child.
ITT people base facts on feelings rather than feelings on facts.
I'd say abortion should be illegal except for early (I can't say exactly how early) in the pregancy, or in cases of rape or threat to the mother.
I don't think it should be legal to kill a child the day of its birth, nor the day before the unborn is expected, nor the day before that, etc. So, I continue this back. I do not know enough biology to decide exactly. Toward the late pregnancy, I think the mother should be obligated to birth the child and if she doesn't wish to care for it, put it up for adoption.
> I don't think it should be legal to kill a child the day of its birth
As it turns out, killing a child on the day of its birth is actually a completely natural survival mechanism in humans and many other animals, and it still happens in our society.
Beware to not kill too many. No more kids = the race is gone.
ITITT aborn!!!
That's no reason at all for it to be legal.
>>3
Cite some actual sources to back up that article. Livejournals usually won't be right you know.
So you think throwing distraught mothers, who might very well be acting on instincts and not even realized what they done, in prison is a better idea? I'm not saying it should be legal either, but as the comments note, many countries have specific laws in place to relieve the mother of responsibility in these cases without directly acknowledging what is taking place.
And there is also the suggesting that by allowing easy abortions, you lessen the number of cases where the mother will kill her child after it has been born, which by any measure really is a worse situation than an abortion.
The article itself is really all about one big source, http://www.amazon.com/Mother-Nature-Maternal-Instincts-Species/dp/0345408934.
Wow, I spell great this morning. Please disregard the horrible mangling of the English language in that preceeding post.
>>8
This is 6
That's not what I said, and you should quit the strawman argument habit. It should be illegal, but if theres a recognized psychological reason that someone can't help, they wouldn't be put in jail. Aside, this thread isn't about that article, but if it's true wouldn't that have more implications on child raising traditions than abortion?
Why should we consider killing a child after it's born worse? That's incredibly relevant to your opinion on the issue of abortion.
ITT fuckers that are better off in some other populist board.
Forgot to sage the post, sorry.
It's not a strawman argument, it's Devil's Advocate. I do basically agree with you, but how do you justify making a law and not enforcing it? What purpose does the law serve in the first place, then?
And no, it doesn't have much implications on child raising, because this happens very shortly after birth, and not much thereafter. It has implications on abortion because if a woman can get an abortion easily, she doesn't need to kill her child herself after it is born.
As for why it's worse to kill a child after it has been born, that would usually boil down to the old argument that at that point, the child is an independent being, and can survive on its own. While the mother is carrying it, there's an argument to be made that it is still part of the mother's body, as it cannot exist independently.
To jail the ones who don't have a legitimate defense. The punishment for breaking laws isn't necessarily jail time either. It could be counseling, a fine for the cost of whatever had to be done to take care of the scene, etc. The purpose would hopefully be to deter people from killing unnecessarily.
I don't believe a child is an independent being until quite a while after birth. They're still pretty helpless for a long time.
> To jail the ones who don't have a legitimate defense.
Is "instincts made me do it" a legitimate defense or not?
> It could be counseling
Counseling isn't going to be of any help for something that already happened, and was a one-off caused by instincts older than the human race.
> I don't believe a child is an independent being until quite a while after birth. They're still pretty helpless for a long time.
Independent from their mother, at least.
That's all up to the courts to decide. Theoretically, at least some of those murders wouldn't be defensible. But, I think we're getting a bit off topic.
If the independence is the major issue, then what about advancements in technology making life outside the womb viable earlier before birth? If it were possible for a 4 month old fetus to survive in an artificial womb outside of the mother would that mean it should have the same rights as a born baby? It would be independent from it's biological mother.
I don't personally see much of a difference between dependency inside the womb biologically and dependency outside the womb financially, except as far as health of the mother goes (in bad cases of which, I think I've already admitted I'd think abortion would be permissable).
> If it were possible for a 4 month old fetus to survive in an artificial womb outside of the mother would that mean it should have the same rights as a born baby?
It might just, but that's not going to happen any time soon, so it's not really a concern.