Muslims in the United States have proven themselves to be loyal to their country and politically moderate. But around the world, especially in Europe, Islam is increasingly viewed as a danger, and young Muslims as unpatriotic. Is this an appropriate bias in dangerous times, or is it bigotry? And what makes the United States different?
>>1
What country are you from? Unless you've actually been to any of those countries besides America, you really can't really make assumptions on them based on what's portrayed by the media.
Sort of busy now, but I'll try to post more on this topic and on my experiences in being a Muslim in America later.
>>1
Im from Europe (German, protestant christian), and most muslims I know (Quite a lot, actually, there's loads of turks at my school) are actually pretty much the same as me: They are of course pissed at people saying that Islam is the root of all evil, but they are equally pissed at muslims that are radical and go rioting over any single little no-issue.
For me, it boils down to this: There's assholes in every bunch, and said assholes just seem to be more visible than all the moderate, normal people. Sadly, in a lot of mainly muslim societies, said assholes seem to have more power than they should have.
But Islam and violence? I don't really think any one of Islam, Christianity and Judaism is "more violent" than any other of these. They actually seem to have a lot in common, and are most probably closeley related to each other anyways (Thats obvious for Judaism and Christianity (lol old testament) and with Islam beeing the newest of the three, it most probably incoperated a lot of the ideas that the other two already had, but I don't really know about that).
In the end, I don't think it's the religion, more the cultural background, how you were raised, and that has more to do with traditions than with actual religion. Did you know the Koran doesn't even say anything about wearing a headscarf, just that women should dress properly (aka "don't let your boobs hang out.")?
tl;dr: Let's respect each others religion, and ignore the real-life trolls that don't.
PS:
If you have time and have never read it, read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_der_Weise (Preferrably, read the actual play instead of the wikipedia article), this play made me think a lot about religious tolerance.
I wish muslims would stop forcing their religion on people.
If there is a difference, I think it has to do more with culture than anything else. In America, being an American isn't an ethnic or religious thing for the most part (culturally, America seems at least nominally Christian, but tolerant of other faiths). In Europe, being German French or Irish is at least partly ethnic, so that even if a middle easterner was born in Germany, he's not German in the same sense as someone who's enthic German living either in Germany or abroad.
>>6
Eh? Do we knock on your door asking you to join our religion?
No, but in muslim nations no other religions are allowed. I think that's more a political thing than religious. Any cultural change threatens the leadership in power. Especially in places were the leadership gets a lot of support from religious groups.
If the US government was supported to the same degree by say the Mormon church, then I think the same types of rules would apply, except that the Sharia would be Mormon instead of Muslim. You couldn't build a mosque in a fundementalist Mormon state, Utah actually requires beer etc. have less alcohol than the normal beer because Mormonism doesn't look kindly on drinking.
The reason that Islam gets a bad rap is the lack of political freedom in Muslim nations.
Converting away from Islam is punishable by death in all Muslim countries.
>>11
Sad truth, iirc. Religion should not play a role in government affairs, but in islamic countries (Well, it's basically the definition of an islamic country) it does. When religion and government are mixed, things get fscked up pretty fast.
In most western countries, religion doesn't have anything to say, which is good and should stay that way. For an example of a mostly-islamic country where freedom of religion actually exists, you could go to turkey, they are probably even overdoing the whole "religion should have no power in the state" thing.
> No, but in muslim nations no other religions are allowed.
Incorrect, unless you are defining "muslim nations" as "nations where no other religion is allowed".
Please give some examples of what you consider a "muslim nation".
>>10
That doesn't really back up the statement "I wish Muslims would stop forcing their religion on people," though. Unless you're saying that all Muslims = the government of those countries you're talking about.
My "knock on your door" comment was referring to the Jehovah's Witnesses, btw. Another thing that came to mind is how there are bibles in every hotel room. I wonder what would happen if Islamic groups started to leave Qurans in there as well? Not to mention stuff like "in God we trust" and that we were taught to repeat we were "one nation under God." What about the atheists? ;)
You could consider that "forcing religion on people" as well. But I wouldn't generalize and just say it was "Christians" behind it, though. Just a select few of them.
>Religion should not play a role in government affairs, but in Islamic countries (Well, it's basically the definition of an Islamic country) it does.
My thoughts are sort of scattered on this, but I'll try to note them:
I think America likes to teach people that our way is the only/best way. Seriously. If we do something, suddenly everything else is wrong. Religion centered government is bad, monarchies are bad, communism is bad, arranged marriages are bad, eating whale is bad, eating a dog/rat/monkey is bad. Why? Because traditionally, we Americans don't do it, or are taught not to. Don't agree? Prepare to be shunned by (American) society or embargoed.
I heavily doubt that our way is the only way. I think a lot of those things can, and have worked for many countries. In fact, I wouldn't doubt some of these thing are still done in a few Western countries. It's just the Asian ones that get media attention.
>in Muslim nations no other religions are allowed.
What do you count as a Muslim nation? Is Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Indonesia one of them? Or are you only counting the ones that don't allow other religions, and are thus arguing in circles. If it's the latter, then your saying "In nations in which only Islam is allowed, only Islam is allowed," which doesn't really make sense as an argument. Unless you're just arguing that they shouldn't exist, in which case I agree.
>Converting away from Islam is punishable by death in all Muslim countries.
Cite sources.
For muslim nations, I'm thinking of nations where the government is specifically Islamic.
So it would be places like Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Pakistan. I don't think Turkey or Indonesia would count as Islamic. Malasia might.
I agree that not every nation needs to follow the US example directly. I think part of the source of the conflict is that muslims feel pressure from the rest of the world to change what they are -- to be Muslim in name only, just as in the West, Christians are for the most part secular except on sundays, and Jews are secular until the sun sets on Friday night.
And for most of the rest of the time, God is essentially on a shelf. It's closer to a hobby than a way of life, which is how most religions are perceived. I doubt that any founder of any religion intended that people would only follow once a week for an hour or so. I think part of the trouble is that muslims want to remain religious, not in the Western way (it's friday, so we go to Mosque for an hour to listen to a sermon and some suras), but it the way they do today, where Islam is a part of everything they do.
i like titties
I think the Paris riots and the shooting of Theo Van Gogh have finally woken Europe up. Immigrants -have- to conform, it's not an option. If Muslims prefer living in the dark ages they should STAY OUT of Europe. Nobody made them immigrate.
This myth of the 'moderate' Muslim is a dangerous one. There gets to be a point, after so much rioting, murdering, and oppression of women that we have to stop pretending that all religions are the same. Heard of any Shintoists blowing themselves up? Did the anti-Catholic 'art' exhibits in New York cause any murders?
Muslims conquered most of the middle east during Muhammed's lifetime, and people say Islam is a religion of peace? Millions of Muslims across the world abuse and mistreat their wives and daughters, and you accept the apologist argument that Islam is egalitarian? Lemme guess, you also believe that Muhammed never fucked his six year old wife?
There are moderate muslims. In fact, some muslims are in the US millitary specifically to defeat the radical muslims. If all muslims were really radicals, why would any of them help us to defeat the radicals?
If you get down to it, it's the same with most religions. If you read the old testement absolutely literally, you'll be just as much of an asshole as any radical muslim. 99% don't read it that way, so Judaism and Christianity aren't violent.
I don't think Islam means peace, it means submission.
>Muslims conquered most of the middle east during Muhammed's lifetime, and people say Islam is a religion of peace?
Yeah, no other people of any other religion ever conquered anything. I'm serious.
>Millions of Muslims across the world abuse and mistreat their wives and daughters, and you accept the apologist argument that Islam is egalitarian?
And where, pray tell, did you dig up this great fact from? Your posterior?
>Lemme guess, you also believe that Muhammed never fucked his six year old wife?
For your information, he waited until she was 9 (or something like that) as it was necessary to consummate their marriage. Does it really matter? Our morals and values have changed greatly since the past. Back in that time, events such as those were probably more common, what with political marriges and whatnot. Just look at England's royalty and you'll probably see a list of incest and "younger" husbands and wives.
At least 9, at most 20 according to wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha's_age_at_marriage
Funny how there's a whole article on it. (Though personally, I wouldn't mind people getting married at that age even in these times, as long as they aren't just pedophiles.)
An example of young marriage and potential incest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary%2C_Princess_of_Orange
Fucktard, I didn't say no other religions are violent. I said to look at it in context. Most religions claim to be peaceful, but actions speak louder than words. When's the last time a Miko strapped a bomb to herself and blew up a crowd of Christians.
Abuse of women:
Sauce: Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, et cetera.
What's funny is when comparing violence in religions, people start mentioning the crusades.
Smart Person: "A Muslim women tried to smuggle a bomb in in baby's clothes four months ago, Theo Van Gogh was murdered two years ago for making a documentary about women in the Middle East, an elderly nun was murdered in Somalia, Muslim immigrants in Australia have been gang-raping women who don't wear burqas, and let's not forget 9/11..."
Dumb Person: "But eight centuries ago Christians were killing people in the Middle East! So there!"
>Abuse of women:
>Sauce: Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, et cetera.
You mean:
Sauce: Certains incidents I saw on TV and in the news that may or may not be true.
Here's something to ponder upon: According to the US census in 2001, 78% of America is Christian, in canada it's 77%, and in Mexico it's 95%.
So, calculate the number of guys who "abuse and mistreat their wives and daughters" in North America, divide that number by 83.3, and you roughly get the number of Christians who abuse their wives and daughters in North America?
>When's the last time a Miko strapped a bomb to herself and blew up a crowd of Christians.
How many Miko are there in comparision to Christians and Muslims? How many would be near Christians in the first place?
As for the crusades, that is overused as an example. How about: we can claim that more than 78% of the army is Christian, enlisted in their own will, and over there fighting now. God, Christians sure are violent.
What's funny is when comparing violence in religions, people start mentioning the crusades.
What's absolutely hilarious is that no one mentioned the crusades. No one. I mentioned violence sanctioned in other religions by their own holy book. My point is that it doesn't matter what you think islam is about, it matters what muslims think islam is about. Just as with any other religion.
Jews are much better equipped to interpret Judaism, Muslims are better equipped to explain Islam, and for that matter, Buddhists probably don't understand Christianity as well as Southern Baptists do.
I think we should be figuring out how to get Muslims to accept the more peaceful interpretations of islam, and encouraging the more peaceful ones to speak out.
*Smart Person: "A Muslim women tried to smuggle a bomb in in baby's clothes four months ago, Theo Van Gogh was murdered two years ago for making a documentary about women in the Middle East, an elderly nun was murdered in Somalia, Muslim immigrants in Australia have been gang-raping women who don't wear burqas, and let's not forget 9/11..."
Dumb Person: "But eight centuries ago Christians were killing people in the Middle East! So there!"
*
Perhaps "Smart person" needs to figure out that not every muslim agrees with every act purpetuated in the name of Islam. There are differences of opinion on just about every subject in every religion. Not all muslim women wear the Hijab, in fact the queen of Jordan doesn't wear one.
Miko
WTF is a Miko?
Wow... I came over to this topic to defend my religion and I see many people here are doing a great job. :)
ror I thought your name was lesbian citizen
Jihad is part of Islamic religious duty, to subjugate non Muslims is the duty of all Muslims. By not allowing Muslims to fight and exploding themselves within Dar-el-Harb, it means that you are forbidding them to do their religious duty. This is intolerance.
One should know that Islam is the true way of the Lord, and it is the religious duty of all Muslims to guide all the stray to the true path (even without them realizing it). Now to allow non Muslims to pray without them knowing that they are stray and wrong, it means that Muslims are neglecting their duties. Many Americans asks why Christian isn't allowed to pray publicly in Saudi Arabia, and ask them to allow it. This means asking Muslims to neglect their duties. This is ignorance.
The biggest mistake is to admit Islam is a religion. What is a religion anyway? What makes something a 'religion'? Should all religions accept that they are equal? Why not categorized it to something else, a cult or an ideology.
Islam should be categorized into an ideology. It should never be put equal to Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, and even Shinto. It tarnished their names. Put it at the same level at Democrazy, Socialism, Nazism, and Communism. And InshaAllah WW3 will happen.
Let's not confuse Islam and Radical Islam. Your use of 'Jihad' is that of fundamentalist Islam, not its traditional use.
While it's true that Islam is tied to government and that there can be no such thing as a completely secular government in an Islamic country, It doesn't mean a nation must suffer under the tyranny of a fundamentalist ideology of a fear-empowered regime.
>there can be no such thing as a completely secular government in an Islamic country
Turkey.
very secular, seeing how Erdoğan is a Milli Görüş member; how his Adalet ve Kalkinma is comprised of cadres who merely pay lip service to kemalist ideals to placate the military; how said cadres continuously propagate islamist ideals whenever they think the military's not watching; and so on and so forth.
oh wait, it's not at all "completely secular". what a bummer.
>>24
While I wouldn't claim that any country is perfect in this regard, you CAN'T BE SERIOUS about any of those countries having less cases of abuse than the US.
"Sauce: Certains incidents I saw on TV and in the news that may or may not be true."
Evidence of unreliability of these claims please. (not general claims made my mainstream media, but the ones relevant to the conversation in particular)
now if a Muslim woman strapped with a bomb on a bus
with the seconds running give you the jitters?
just imagine a American-based Christian organization planning to poison water supplies to bring the second-coming quicker