Islam and violence (140)

1 Name: Citizen : 2006-09-28 22:39 ID:YfSnCEnq

Muslims in the United States have proven themselves to be loyal to their country and politically moderate. But around the world, especially in Europe, Islam is increasingly viewed as a danger, and young Muslims as unpatriotic. Is this an appropriate bias in dangerous times, or is it bigotry? And what makes the United States different?

2 Name: Citizen : 2006-09-29 00:39 ID:QBVFeDz8

>>1
What country are you from? Unless you've actually been to any of those countries besides America, you really can't really make assumptions on them based on what's portrayed by the media.

Sort of busy now, but I'll try to post more on this topic and on my experiences in being a Muslim in America later.

3 Name: Citizen : 2006-09-29 01:33 ID:vNUfvTqJ

>>1 Link, please.

4 Name: Citizen : 2006-09-29 13:16 ID:bRSCcQdi

>>1
Im from Europe (German, protestant christian), and most muslims I know (Quite a lot, actually, there's loads of turks at my school) are actually pretty much the same as me: They are of course pissed at people saying that Islam is the root of all evil, but they are equally pissed at muslims that are radical and go rioting over any single little no-issue.

For me, it boils down to this: There's assholes in every bunch, and said assholes just seem to be more visible than all the moderate, normal people. Sadly, in a lot of mainly muslim societies, said assholes seem to have more power than they should have.

But Islam and violence? I don't really think any one of Islam, Christianity and Judaism is "more violent" than any other of these. They actually seem to have a lot in common, and are most probably closeley related to each other anyways (Thats obvious for Judaism and Christianity (lol old testament) and with Islam beeing the newest of the three, it most probably incoperated a lot of the ideas that the other two already had, but I don't really know about that).

In the end, I don't think it's the religion, more the cultural background, how you were raised, and that has more to do with traditions than with actual religion. Did you know the Koran doesn't even say anything about wearing a headscarf, just that women should dress properly (aka "don't let your boobs hang out.")?

tl;dr: Let's respect each others religion, and ignore the real-life trolls that don't.

PS:
If you have time and have never read it, read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_der_Weise (Preferrably, read the actual play instead of the wikipedia article), this play made me think a lot about religious tolerance.

5 Name: Citizen : 2006-09-29 17:33 ID:ZN9Q8jxA

>>3
No link, I read this in Newsweek and I am still wondering about it.

Thanks >>4

6 Name: Citizen : 2006-09-29 19:13 ID:Heaven

I wish muslims would stop forcing their religion on people.

7 Name: Citizen : 2006-09-29 20:32 ID:Heaven

>>6
I wish the same of uberreligious people in general.

8 Name: Citizen : 2006-09-30 00:26 ID:3UD9jc3H

If there is a difference, I think it has to do more with culture than anything else. In America, being an American isn't an ethnic or religious thing for the most part (culturally, America seems at least nominally Christian, but tolerant of other faiths). In Europe, being German French or Irish is at least partly ethnic, so that even if a middle easterner was born in Germany, he's not German in the same sense as someone who's enthic German living either in Germany or abroad.

9 Name: Citizen : 2006-09-30 01:48 ID:QBVFeDz8

>>6
Eh? Do we knock on your door asking you to join our religion?

10 Name: Citizen : 2006-10-04 11:05 ID:3UD9jc3H

>>9

No, but in muslim nations no other religions are allowed. I think that's more a political thing than religious. Any cultural change threatens the leadership in power. Especially in places were the leadership gets a lot of support from religious groups.

If the US government was supported to the same degree by say the Mormon church, then I think the same types of rules would apply, except that the Sharia would be Mormon instead of Muslim. You couldn't build a mosque in a fundementalist Mormon state, Utah actually requires beer etc. have less alcohol than the normal beer because Mormonism doesn't look kindly on drinking.

The reason that Islam gets a bad rap is the lack of political freedom in Muslim nations.

11 Name: Citizen : 2006-10-04 16:57 ID:S3sSL9e4

Converting away from Islam is punishable by death in all Muslim countries.

12 Name: Citizen : 2006-10-04 19:02 ID:Heaven

>>11
Sad truth, iirc. Religion should not play a role in government affairs, but in islamic countries (Well, it's basically the definition of an islamic country) it does. When religion and government are mixed, things get fscked up pretty fast.

In most western countries, religion doesn't have anything to say, which is good and should stay that way. For an example of a mostly-islamic country where freedom of religion actually exists, you could go to turkey, they are probably even overdoing the whole "religion should have no power in the state" thing.

13 Name: Citizen : 2006-10-05 14:31 ID:3eymWcVG

> No, but in muslim nations no other religions are allowed.

Incorrect, unless you are defining "muslim nations" as "nations where no other religion is allowed".

Please give some examples of what you consider a "muslim nation".

14 Name: Citizen : 2006-10-05 15:06 ID:Heaven

>>10
That doesn't really back up the statement "I wish Muslims would stop forcing their religion on people," though. Unless you're saying that all Muslims = the government of those countries you're talking about.

My "knock on your door" comment was referring to the Jehovah's Witnesses, btw. Another thing that came to mind is how there are bibles in every hotel room. I wonder what would happen if Islamic groups started to leave Qurans in there as well? Not to mention stuff like "in God we trust" and that we were taught to repeat we were "one nation under God." What about the atheists? ;)

You could consider that "forcing religion on people" as well. But I wouldn't generalize and just say it was "Christians" behind it, though. Just a select few of them.

>>12

>Religion should not play a role in government affairs, but in Islamic countries (Well, it's basically the definition of an Islamic country) it does.

My thoughts are sort of scattered on this, but I'll try to note them:

I think America likes to teach people that our way is the only/best way. Seriously. If we do something, suddenly everything else is wrong. Religion centered government is bad, monarchies are bad, communism is bad, arranged marriages are bad, eating whale is bad, eating a dog/rat/monkey is bad. Why? Because traditionally, we Americans don't do it, or are taught not to. Don't agree? Prepare to be shunned by (American) society or embargoed.

I heavily doubt that our way is the only way. I think a lot of those things can, and have worked for many countries. In fact, I wouldn't doubt some of these thing are still done in a few Western countries. It's just the Asian ones that get media attention.

>in Muslim nations no other religions are allowed.

What do you count as a Muslim nation? Is Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Indonesia one of them? Or are you only counting the ones that don't allow other religions, and are thus arguing in circles. If it's the latter, then your saying "In nations in which only Islam is allowed, only Islam is allowed," which doesn't really make sense as an argument. Unless you're just arguing that they shouldn't exist, in which case I agree.

>Converting away from Islam is punishable by death in all Muslim countries.

Cite sources.

15 Name: Citizen : 2006-10-06 01:37 ID:3UD9jc3H

>>13

For muslim nations, I'm thinking of nations where the government is specifically Islamic.

So it would be places like Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Pakistan. I don't think Turkey or Indonesia would count as Islamic. Malasia might.

16 Name: Citizen : 2006-10-06 01:51 ID:3UD9jc3H

>>14

I agree that not every nation needs to follow the US example directly. I think part of the source of the conflict is that muslims feel pressure from the rest of the world to change what they are -- to be Muslim in name only, just as in the West, Christians are for the most part secular except on sundays, and Jews are secular until the sun sets on Friday night.

And for most of the rest of the time, God is essentially on a shelf. It's closer to a hobby than a way of life, which is how most religions are perceived. I doubt that any founder of any religion intended that people would only follow once a week for an hour or so. I think part of the trouble is that muslims want to remain religious, not in the Western way (it's friday, so we go to Mosque for an hour to listen to a sermon and some suras), but it the way they do today, where Islam is a part of everything they do.

17 Name: Citizen : 2006-10-23 01:10 ID:6J+wnY3D

i like titties

18 Name: Citizen : 2006-11-19 23:15 ID:glTLUzEH

I think the Paris riots and the shooting of Theo Van Gogh have finally woken Europe up. Immigrants -have- to conform, it's not an option. If Muslims prefer living in the dark ages they should STAY OUT of Europe. Nobody made them immigrate.

This myth of the 'moderate' Muslim is a dangerous one. There gets to be a point, after so much rioting, murdering, and oppression of women that we have to stop pretending that all religions are the same. Heard of any Shintoists blowing themselves up? Did the anti-Catholic 'art' exhibits in New York cause any murders?

Muslims conquered most of the middle east during Muhammed's lifetime, and people say Islam is a religion of peace? Millions of Muslims across the world abuse and mistreat their wives and daughters, and you accept the apologist argument that Islam is egalitarian? Lemme guess, you also believe that Muhammed never fucked his six year old wife?

19 Name: Citizen : 2006-11-20 03:17 ID:3UD9jc3H

>>18

There are moderate muslims. In fact, some muslims are in the US millitary specifically to defeat the radical muslims. If all muslims were really radicals, why would any of them help us to defeat the radicals?

If you get down to it, it's the same with most religions. If you read the old testement absolutely literally, you'll be just as much of an asshole as any radical muslim. 99% don't read it that way, so Judaism and Christianity aren't violent.

I don't think Islam means peace, it means submission.

20 Name: Citizen : 2006-11-20 06:02 ID:4w/IlyWJ

>Muslims conquered most of the middle east during Muhammed's lifetime, and people say Islam is a religion of peace?

Yeah, no other people of any other religion ever conquered anything. I'm serious.

>Millions of Muslims across the world abuse and mistreat their wives and daughters, and you accept the apologist argument that Islam is egalitarian?

And where, pray tell, did you dig up this great fact from? Your posterior?

>Lemme guess, you also believe that Muhammed never fucked his six year old wife?

For your information, he waited until she was 9 (or something like that) as it was necessary to consummate their marriage. Does it really matter? Our morals and values have changed greatly since the past. Back in that time, events such as those were probably more common, what with political marriges and whatnot. Just look at England's royalty and you'll probably see a list of incest and "younger" husbands and wives.

21 Name: Citizen : 2006-11-20 06:36 ID:4w/IlyWJ

At least 9, at most 20 according to wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha's_age_at_marriage

Funny how there's a whole article on it. (Though personally, I wouldn't mind people getting married at that age even in these times, as long as they aren't just pedophiles.)

An example of young marriage and potential incest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary%2C_Princess_of_Orange

22 Name: Citizen : 2006-11-20 09:15 ID:glTLUzEH

Fucktard, I didn't say no other religions are violent. I said to look at it in context. Most religions claim to be peaceful, but actions speak louder than words. When's the last time a Miko strapped a bomb to herself and blew up a crowd of Christians.

Abuse of women:
Sauce: Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, et cetera.

23 Name: Citizen : 2006-11-20 09:21 ID:glTLUzEH

What's funny is when comparing violence in religions, people start mentioning the crusades.

Smart Person: "A Muslim women tried to smuggle a bomb in in baby's clothes four months ago, Theo Van Gogh was murdered two years ago for making a documentary about women in the Middle East, an elderly nun was murdered in Somalia, Muslim immigrants in Australia have been gang-raping women who don't wear burqas, and let's not forget 9/11..."

Dumb Person: "But eight centuries ago Christians were killing people in the Middle East! So there!"

24 Name: Citizen : 2006-11-20 16:05 ID:4w/IlyWJ

>Abuse of women:
>Sauce: Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, et cetera.

You mean:
Sauce: Certains incidents I saw on TV and in the news that may or may not be true.

Here's something to ponder upon: According to the US census in 2001, 78% of America is Christian, in canada it's 77%, and in Mexico it's 95%.

So, calculate the number of guys who "abuse and mistreat their wives and daughters" in North America, divide that number by 83.3, and you roughly get the number of Christians who abuse their wives and daughters in North America?

>When's the last time a Miko strapped a bomb to herself and blew up a crowd of Christians.

How many Miko are there in comparision to Christians and Muslims? How many would be near Christians in the first place?

As for the crusades, that is overused as an example. How about: we can claim that more than 78% of the army is Christian, enlisted in their own will, and over there fighting now. God, Christians sure are violent.

25 Name: Citizen : 2006-11-20 21:30 ID:3UD9jc3H

What's funny is when comparing violence in religions, people start mentioning the crusades.

What's absolutely hilarious is that no one mentioned the crusades. No one. I mentioned violence sanctioned in other religions by their own holy book. My point is that it doesn't matter what you think islam is about, it matters what muslims think islam is about. Just as with any other religion.

Jews are much better equipped to interpret Judaism, Muslims are better equipped to explain Islam, and for that matter, Buddhists probably don't understand Christianity as well as Southern Baptists do.

I think we should be figuring out how to get Muslims to accept the more peaceful interpretations of islam, and encouraging the more peaceful ones to speak out.

*Smart Person: "A Muslim women tried to smuggle a bomb in in baby's clothes four months ago, Theo Van Gogh was murdered two years ago for making a documentary about women in the Middle East, an elderly nun was murdered in Somalia, Muslim immigrants in Australia have been gang-raping women who don't wear burqas, and let's not forget 9/11..."

Dumb Person: "But eight centuries ago Christians were killing people in the Middle East! So there!"
*

Perhaps "Smart person" needs to figure out that not every muslim agrees with every act purpetuated in the name of Islam. There are differences of opinion on just about every subject in every religion. Not all muslim women wear the Hijab, in fact the queen of Jordan doesn't wear one.

Miko
WTF is a Miko?

26 Name: Lebanese Citizen : 2006-12-25 22:02 ID:v/wU2E8Z

Wow... I came over to this topic to defend my religion and I see many people here are doing a great job. :)

27 Name: Citizen : 2007-02-21 18:41 ID:L9hocFJr

ror I thought your name was lesbian citizen

28 Name: Citizen : 2007-02-23 13:37 ID:g9lssqhu

Jihad is part of Islamic religious duty, to subjugate non Muslims is the duty of all Muslims. By not allowing Muslims to fight and exploding themselves within Dar-el-Harb, it means that you are forbidding them to do their religious duty. This is intolerance.

One should know that Islam is the true way of the Lord, and it is the religious duty of all Muslims to guide all the stray to the true path (even without them realizing it). Now to allow non Muslims to pray without them knowing that they are stray and wrong, it means that Muslims are neglecting their duties. Many Americans asks why Christian isn't allowed to pray publicly in Saudi Arabia, and ask them to allow it. This means asking Muslims to neglect their duties. This is ignorance.

The biggest mistake is to admit Islam is a religion. What is a religion anyway? What makes something a 'religion'? Should all religions accept that they are equal? Why not categorized it to something else, a cult or an ideology.

Islam should be categorized into an ideology. It should never be put equal to Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, and even Shinto. It tarnished their names. Put it at the same level at Democrazy, Socialism, Nazism, and Communism. And InshaAllah WW3 will happen.

29 Name: Citizen : 2007-02-25 03:49 ID:fhnhQov7

Let's not confuse Islam and Radical Islam. Your use of 'Jihad' is that of fundamentalist Islam, not its traditional use.

While it's true that Islam is tied to government and that there can be no such thing as a completely secular government in an Islamic country, It doesn't mean a nation must suffer under the tyranny of a fundamentalist ideology of a fear-empowered regime.

30 Name: Citizen : 2007-02-25 16:00 ID:Heaven

>there can be no such thing as a completely secular government in an Islamic country

Turkey.

31 Name: Citizen : 2007-02-26 10:32 ID:Heaven

>>30

very secular, seeing how Erdoğan is a Milli Görüş member; how his Adalet ve Kalkinma is comprised of cadres who merely pay lip service to kemalist ideals to placate the military; how said cadres continuously propagate islamist ideals whenever they think the military's not watching; and so on and so forth.
oh wait, it's not at all "completely secular". what a bummer.

32 Name: Citizen : 2007-02-26 21:13 ID:Heaven

>>24
While I wouldn't claim that any country is perfect in this regard, you CAN'T BE SERIOUS about any of those countries having less cases of abuse than the US.

"Sauce: Certains incidents I saw on TV and in the news that may or may not be true."
Evidence of unreliability of these claims please. (not general claims made my mainstream media, but the ones relevant to the conversation in particular)

33 Name: Citizen : 2007-03-05 21:25 ID:DxYyW3TV

now if a Muslim woman strapped with a bomb on a bus
with the seconds running give you the jitters?
just imagine a American-based Christian organization planning to poison water supplies to bring the second-coming quicker

34 Name: Citizen : 2007-03-08 23:57 ID:Heaven

> WTF is a Miko?

shinto priestess

35 Name: Citizen : 2007-03-15 22:58 ID:Nr3CD49e

Well, the problem with islam is that there are alot of "if you don't do exactly this, you are not a muslim" phrases, so either you're a fundie or you're a nothing. The Bible has these too, but with protestantism actually gaining the advantage several places in europe back in the days (there were large inter-religious wars back then too), it all got sorta moderated out, but you stills ee the catholic countries troubling with fundamentalists. Now, i don't know that much about the different off-springs of islam (there are many, many, more than just the shia/sunni ones), but i know that there are very secular, or relaxed versions of islam that are preached/practiced. The problem is that alot of these have been slaughtered over the times by the other muslims, and never got a really strong foothold like protestantism in europe.
I think that in the next period of time we will see a sort of a, well, not a revolution, but a stand-off between a more personal or secular version of islam, and the more fundamentalistic one. A ridding of the principles of the qu'ran which are not really usable, the ones that require you to war and convert etc. as most normal muslims that i know of, don't do those things anyway, and as the pressure from the top of the islamic religious societies will require them to do so, they will hopefully rebel.

36 Name: Citizen : 2007-03-23 19:01 ID:Heaven

>>34 u even bothered answering??

37 Name: Citizen : 2007-04-27 15:48 ID:/7S4UQuJ

>>25

Protip buddy. Learn some history, the crusades were a military necessity against an agressive and expanding islamic empire.

It wasn't just for fun and slaughtering muslims, it was pushing them away and out of europe. Unless of course you would rather europe have been conquered too?

38 Name: Citizen : 2007-04-29 00:32 ID:3UD9jc3H

>>37

To Do:

Learn to Read.

Seriously.

I didn't talk at all about whether the Crusades were right or wrong. What I said was:

ASK THE FUCKING MUSLIMS WHAT THE RELIGION MEANS.

I can give you my interpretation -- but I'm not a muslim who grew up quoting the qu'ran and the hadith. I'm a deist. I'm not qualified to interpret other people's religions for them. Muslims know better than I do. They know better than you do.

All religions have scripture, but they also have traditions and standard interpretations of various verses.

Just reading the Catholic Bible (it's actually slightly different from the protestant Bible), you don't have a complete picture of Catholicism. The traditions of the church are just as important. And if you don't know them, you don't have enough information to judge Catholicism as good, evil, or stupid. Do your homework -- find out about the history and the traditions.

Now as far as the crusades -- from what I've read, it was mostly about protecting pilgims visiting the holy land. There were a few wars in Europe. Spain and Romania were invaded by muslim armies, but I don't think they were part of the crusades. But those were separate wars. Vlad the Impaler (the inspiration for Dracula, BTW) wasn't part of the crusades.

39 Name: Citizen : 2007-04-29 20:10 ID:Heaven

> Unless of course you would rather europe have been conquered too?

If it was, you'd be a Muslim bitching that it wasn't conquered quickly enough.

40 Name: yusuf : 2007-06-23 11:49 ID:+8RZ2Ee5

41 Name: Citizen : 2007-07-27 14:24 ID:fWOxC/vG

south Korean christian missionary 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G07u0x82aQw

42 Name: Citizen : 2007-08-09 04:02 ID:pIUx72E0

Take a look at the KKK. THAT'S fucking extremist. I understand that the KKK isn't that violent, but when you've known that these fuckers have existed ever since White Man set sail to different countries in search of riches, That's fucking sicking.

43 Name: Citizen : 2007-12-14 11:05 ID:UgsEOQ8z

looks like no one comes from indonesia like myself
for all those people who said that islam does not teach violence...
please...do come and visit my country with 200 million muslim, you cant go wrong

i do agree that there is always some extremist in every religion, but 200 million ???...it's so damn easy to find an extremist in your neighbourhood

what KKK did in america during the segregation time is almost similar compared to what extremist muslim did to other religion
not to mentioned if you are not a "pribumi"

a simple example of how extremist muslims forced their so called "way of life" towards other religion, in some places, they forced restaurants to close down during the day in the fasting month, please take a note that there is not one province in indonesia that is populated 100% by muslims

i'll gladly answer any questions regarding my dear country

XXzzXX

44 Name: Citizen : 2008-02-27 00:27 ID:96xZSv2y

Islam may or may not be dangerous, depending on the person in question. There are a number of moderate Muslims who emphasize the peaceful verses in the Quran just as there are a number of Christians who emphasize the peaceful verses in the bible. Sharia law DOES allow for other religions.

The main issue I can see being a problem with Islam is that the Quran is held as infallible by all Muslims I have spoken to, much like uber-fundie Christians take the bible to be.Therefore, there's no "well, this may be a mistranslation" or "this was Paul's opinion", etc to deal with. You have to work with what is in the Quran and other sources for Islamic thought.

45 Post deleted.

46 Name: Citizen : 2008-04-17 23:37 ID:eh/UA3G5

Muslims are the most danger thing to Europe at the moment.

47 Name: Citizen : 2008-04-18 02:57 ID:EcPobEU4

>>Muslims in the United States have proven themselves to be loyal to their country and politically moderate.

Except when they're getting caught raising money for Hamas and Hezbollah, or joining the Army just to frag an officer, amirite?

48 Name: Citizen : 2008-04-18 04:40 ID:SfvD5FyB

>>43
Yes there are demagogues in every religion, so the problem is due to pride and bigotry more than religion. The need for pride stems from insecurity, so people who see that the west is rich and their countries are poor yet have been brought up to believe Islam is the absolute truth and utopia are more likely to become extremists than well off christians in a free society. Demagogues abuse their insecurities to justify bigotry and then hide behind islam when they are criticised for it. The KKK did the same except hid behind christianity and their people instead of islam.

So Islam isn't the real issue, it's insecurity. People in your country just need to accept that there is something very wrong with their culture and they need to change.

49 Name: Citizen : 2008-04-18 22:04 ID:XYZG7W5d

In the Quran, immigrating to another country is an act of war. The Quran says that when you cannot beat an enemy, Muslims should immigrate there until they outnumber them.

Everything is an act of racial supremacy and war in Islam.

50 Name: Citizen : 2008-04-19 01:15 ID:SfvD5FyB

>>49
What about all those black and asian muslims.

51 Name: Citizen : 2008-04-19 22:30 ID:Heaven

>>50
Yes that's called conversion.

52 Name: Citizen : 2008-04-21 13:50 ID:raqtlbHM

that is jews do to palestine untill they get their own country = israel.
now they attacking palestine

53 Name: Citizen : 2008-04-21 19:02 ID:uRGdiUWy

[b]Islam:[/b]
[i]We're a religion of peace, and we'll kill you to prove it.[/i]

54 Name: Citizen : 2008-04-22 11:19 ID:SfvD5FyB

>>51
Racial conversion?

55 Name: Citizen : 2008-05-30 13:00 ID:esrBUbR0

>>49

I don't think so. And I dare you to quote the verses that say so. I've read the book, and I never came across immigration as war.

56 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-01 17:41 ID:fIhf8335

>>55

Oh yeah? Well The Quran says you're a doucheface. So there!

57 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-01 17:58 ID:KjWueP74

>Except when they're getting caught raising money for Hamas and Hezbollah

Oh come on now. Hamas and Hezbollah are not anti-U.S.: they are anti-Israel. Since the creation of Israel, it has spent more time illegally occupying Lebanon than it has spent not illegally occupying Lebanon. Hezbollah are not cut and dried terrorists inasmuch as they are patriots trying to push armed invaders from their country. In turn, the injustices perpetrated upon the Palestinian people by the Israeli government is well documented. While there are extremist elements of Hamas who are essentially aimed at genocide, that does not mark the character of the entire group. I would consider the official platforms (keep in mind that Hamas is a political party in a government) before castigating the whole group based on the ravings of a lunatic fringe. Think back to Arafat's closing comments at the U.N.

>Today I have come bearing an olive branch and a freedom fighter's gun. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand.

58 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-02 02:44 ID:BFWdyGLC

>>Oh come on now. Hamas and Hezbollah are not anti-U.S.

wat

59 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-02 18:14 ID:glTLUzEH

>>1

The trick is to not import enough immigrants that they're able to form insular little communities. America's Muslims are fewer, so they are assimilated by our culture.

And it's our culture that is the key to ending the menace of Islam. My friend in Iraq makes a lot of money on the side by selling things like porn magazines and booze. Once our culture seeps in some more, and the people have a healthy level of decadence and skepticism, we'll see a much more peaceful Middle East.

60 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-03 12:03 ID:esrBUbR0

>>56
So what's the Arabic Word for doucheface?

>>59
I think assimilation is a good thing, so long as it is unforced. Europe's method does nothing more than piss off muslims by telling them that publicly wearing symbols of their religion is wrong (IE the ban on hijabs in public schools in France). You can't force secularism on people any more than you could force Buddhism or Christianity on people. All you do is create a backlash. The Greeks tried to paganize the Jews, they got the Maccabean revolt (see I & II Maccabees, you can probably read it online).

61 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-03 19:51 ID:0JKGsTE3

the thing about islam compared to other religions is that islamic fundamentalism (and i mean proper everything-in-the-Quran-is-true fundamentalism, not like your average christian fundie who follows the bible to the letter when it allows them to attack homosexuals but ignores a lot of the other crazy stuff) is far more prevalent than it is in other religions, mostly due to the presence of the various islamic nations where such fundamentalism is not only normal but enforced by law.

islam as a religion is no more of a threat than christianity, provided the Quran isn't taken 100% seriously, and i think most muslims who emigrate abroad are willing to accept that. the problem is that you occasionally get one or two that stubbornly hold on to the values of their previous country, then they start preaching about jihad and such and the press catches onto it and starts spreading the idea that all muslims are a threat to the western way of life

62 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-04 17:42 ID:esrBUbR0

>>61

I'd agree with you except that I don't see World-Wide-WTF-Jihad in the Koran. Every time I see it mentioned, it's in connection with the prophet and Mecca. There are other verses that strongly argue for religious freedom closer to what Jefferson might have preached.

for example:

**Surah 109

Al Kafirun (Those Who Reject Faith)

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

  1. Say: O ye that reject Faith!
  2. I worship not that which ye worship,
  3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
  4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
  5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
  6. To you be your Way, and to me mine.

(Yusuf Ali Trans Qu'ran)**

Does that sound like a religion that requires likking the infidels? I think the Jihadi movement is a later interpretation, IMO. It's not so much Islam as Islam with 'Roid Rage.

63 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-04 22:33 ID:aLcIFLtq

>>61
Yeah, those Muslim nuts are nothing like the Christians who bomb abortion clinics and hold book burnings. State endorsement is not a necessary precursor to bat-shit insane behavior. Bat-shit insane State platforms do not necessarily produce fanaticism - id est Neo-Liberalism and Pinochet. I don't remember hearing any stories about brown people reciting Friedman into a megaphone before setting off a bomb in a mall.

64 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-05 00:28 ID:fIhf8335

>>60

> Arabic Word for doucheface?

الله

65 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-05 14:28 ID:Heaven

>>63

> I don't remember hearing any stories about brown people reciting Friedman into a megaphone before setting off a bomb in a mall.

i love you marry me

66 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-05 18:26 ID:0A3KO0hH

>>1

Muslims in the US have not proven themselves to be loyal and moderate. They are just waiting. On a side note, I am not a loyal American either. How could anyone be loyal to the US is beyond me.

Fuck the USA.

67 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-05 19:03 ID:wA30kKR6

>>66

3dgy!!!

68 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-06 05:58 ID:Heaven

> How could anyone be loyal to the US is beyond me.

especially when the US govt isn't even loyal to the US.

69 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-09 19:47 ID:HBSd1DcG

>>68

The US is not loyal to itself or to the people it is supposed to be serving. I agree, fuck America.

70 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-10 05:52 ID:EcPobEU4

>>66 is the id of the Democratic Party.

71 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-10 14:10 ID:kFegqboJ

I like cock.

72 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-10 19:31 ID:Heaven

>>69
"L'Etat, c'est moi."
--some Eurofag

we don't do things like that in the US. the goverment is not the US.

73 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-15 19:35 ID:xZYd9dzc

WTF!!!! This thread doesn't function as it was supposed to be! We need more arguments and facts or everything not some rubbish! Hope there is some people take note on this!

74 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-16 13:48 ID:0A3KO0hH

>>1

Let's break down your comment sentence by sentence:

"Muslims in the United States have proven themselves to be loyal to their country and politically moderate."

WRONG. In fact, you know a guy named Lewis Farrakan? He is the leader of the "Nation of Islam" (NOI) movement. The majority members whom are black. Wanna take a guess which ethnic group in the United States practices Islam...African Americans (or Blacks). Most blacks are not right leaning and most have liberal/socialist mindsets, therefore not a part of the capitalist system run by the conservative Christians. For the blacks who are socialist and Christian, Jesse Jackson is their leader. Make note that Farrakan and Jackson are buddy buddy for a reason.

"But around the world, especially in Europe, Islam is increasingly viewed as a danger, and young Muslims as unpatriotic."

Islam in fact OUTSIDE the United States is viewed as moderate, especially in Europe and Asia since Muslims are seen as running from a occupier of their lands, Israel. Muslims are only viewed as unpatriotic to ISRAEL. Considering when the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) routinely kills and tortures Muslims for fun, even when they are born inside Israel and are actual Israeli citizens.

"Is this an appropriate bias in dangerous times, or is it bigotry? And what makes the United States different?"

If you are referring to what makes the US different from Europe, is it (BOTH political parties) and Israel are attempting to remove Islam from the middle east. For some odd reason the Christians seem to think the Jews own all of the middle east and have been trying for almost 1,100 years to get it back for them, but without success. Now that modern warfare as been developed and World War I brought down the Ottoman Empire, they are now moving forward with genocide of Muslims.

Why does this bother Farrakan and Jesse Jackson? Because Americans are the stupid group of sheep on earth and after the next false flag terror attack carried out by the government/Israel, people will "demand" that the Muslims be rounded up and put into camps. What do you think will happen when the US government attempts to put every BLACK man, woman, and child into a camp. Oh damn buddy. Gonna be fun to watch.

75 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-16 13:58 ID:0A3KO0hH

>>74

Correction...at the beginning, I meant to say the LARGEST ethnic group that practices Islam in the US are Black people. Most uneducated Americans/uber-Christians think it is Arabs.

76 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-16 16:45 ID:Yx65Z0mn

>>58

sorry but >>57 is correct. Hezbolla doesn't attack the US and only talks shit about us whenever we interfere with their war against israel. They are not terrorists in the classic sense and thats why Al-Qaeda is constantly beefing with them (that and that they are shia while A-Q is sunni). Hezbolla actually uses much of there economic resources to provide civil services that the Lebanese government is unable to provide (IE schools, hospitals, and soup kitchens). This is why most of Europe doesn't consider them terrorists. We do because we have this stupid entanlgement iwth israel (which is stupid when you consider that they beat the shit out of kuwait, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Syria IN SIX DAYS). As for the Palestinians, it's a mixed bag. On the one hand, Hammas has a sizable wing of apeshit genocidal maniacs. On the other hand, israel has a habbit of pulling some dumb shit. Some dumbfuck fundy from hammas attacks an israeli military installation, the next day, the israeli military sent AN ENTIRE FUCKING TANK BATALION rolling into the Suburbs. not Mossad to take out Hammas gunmen. No! They like to do what they did in Lebanon over Hezbollas last attempt at a prisoner swap. Punish the civilians for the actions of the terrorists. If china had invaded the states and pulled shit like that on us, you would be apeshit anti chinese too.

As for the rest of the discussion, Islam is not the problem. Organized religion is easily corrupted and is newer than christianity. their religion is about as old as christianity was at the time of the 2 inquisitions, so this all seems to make sense. Traditionally, Islam was relatively peaceful and historically didnt do the OMGWTF KILL THE INFIDELS thing. Even in the crusades, while Richard the Lionheart and other Christians routinely tortured and executed captured muslims, Saladin forbade that treatment of captured knights and had them treated like normal non muslim citizens. They were not to be tortured or killed and were fed. It is only until after world war 2 that muslims became radical. Go figure, thats about the same time that Israel was formed out of a peice of land that belonged to Muslim herders. Radical islam isn't even as common as the media makes out. Much of central and northern africa is muslim. With the exception of the Janjaweed militia in Sudan, most of africa's muslims are not american killing, jew hating fundies. They are rural communities that live under sharia law and down bother most people. They tolerate non muslims provided they pay their tax and do not advocate blowing up busses. This is largely true of egypt too (which is technically part of africa.) also, most muslims in kuwait and most Persian Gulf countries dont have beef with us. Some of them, like the United Arab Emirites and Saudi, are our allies and fundimentalist islam is banned. Hell, Dubai (which is in UAE) tolerates Michael Jackson. Do you think OSama bin Laden would tolerate a boy fucker? Radical Islam would call for jackson to be stoned to death. clearly there are many non fundy muslims in the world. They are your silent minority.

77 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-25 00:13 ID:EcPobEU4

>>76
Two hundred Marines who died in their barracks in Beirut in 1982 would like to have a word with you.

78 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-25 11:20 ID:Heaven

>>77
a. Hizbollah was formed in 1985.
b. Lebanese Civil War was complex as fuck. For reals, try reading about it without going crazy.

79 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-25 16:20 ID:BYVZOYqI

>>78
o rly? Because I am old enough to remember reading the name "Hezbollah" in the newspapers long before 1985.

In any event, does it matter what Arab terrorists are calling themselves this week? We are at war with all of them and have been since before you were born.

80 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-25 17:44 ID:Yx65Z0mn

>>79

no, we have been at war with them ever since we decided to back israel like if it was the 51st state of the union. its retarded. as for those marines, they were in a baracks in the middle of a fucking civil war. that doesnt make hezbolla terrorists. it means we put troops in the middle of a war zone and did not get them the fuck out. The weapons used by most middle easterners are not known for their pin point accuracy (remember the inaccurate pos that was the scud). besides, we were backing their enemies. of course they blew us up. u need to stop refering to anyone who attacks america as a terrorist. if they attack civilians as a war tactic, yes, thats terrorism. if they attack military targets, thats just conventional warfare. get over it and realize that if u get in other peoples shit, u get in harms way. putting those marines there is like stepping into a street fight between lenux luis and mike tyson out in an alley to break it up and expect not to get hurt. hezbollah has never attacked the US. our troops, maybe, but on their turf. they dont attack american companies, blow up american landmarks with planes or hijack american civilian transports. they dont fuck with anyone except israel.

81 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-25 18:30 ID:BYVZOYqI

>>80
We have been at war with them--or, more accurately, Islam has been at war with the rest of humanity--for 1300 years.

82 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-25 18:46 ID:Heaven

>>81

My God can beat up your God, so there.

83 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-27 06:53 ID:Heaven

>>81

Yeah, totally unlike the Christians who did a bang up job on slaughtering the indigenous people of North and South America, carving up Africa, and constantly trying to make headway into Asian resources. And Christians haven't spent centuries at war with humanity?

Christianity isn't been at war with the rest of the world: Christians are. In turn, Islam isn't at war with the rest of the world: Muslims are.

Go shout "9/11" somewhere else

84 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-27 21:03 ID:RzMA5TZQ

>>83
Yepp, u are right here. The "I am RIGHT" mentality among peoples in our world should be erased 4 good but as complex as our world is I don't think we can ever catch it up with the time (even the holy scriptures tells about this!.

In the end destruction prevails, and I am so scared now......

85 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-27 21:52 ID:esrBUbR0

>>82

We pagans have hundreds of gods. Your single god gives me lulz.

>>83

Islam would be at war with the world if the book said to, and the majority of muslims believed it was. Islam is halfway there, but fortunately, the majority of muslims aren't seeing the book as it literally says. Thank the gods for figurative language.

But us rubbing dirt in their faces is onlt going to make them see the Jihad verses as the answer to their problems. Then, we'll be royally fucked.

86 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-28 15:18 ID:awRmv51v

>>85
Deport the Middle Eastern god!

87 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-29 02:33 ID:esrBUbR0

>>86 deport him to where?

88 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-29 03:06 ID:EcPobEU4

>>82
I am an atheist. This does not mean that I am incapable of distinguishing between, on the one hand, preposterous nonsense that is mainly harmful only to those who believe it, and, on the other hand, preposterous nonsense which obligates the true believer to wage war on all nonbelievers, everywhere, forever. Christianity is merely sad. Islam is an abomination and a cancer on the human race.

>>85
We know how to wage war against superstitious savages. Our great-great-grandparents knew. I will quote from a work of fiction, but it is well-researched fiction.

"Mr. Pennell, there are only three things to remember out here. Always make them think you are in force, or will be soon. Always frighten them until they stop thinking and take refuge in Medicine. Then turn it against them, spoil its power and break it, so they can't trust anything. And always treat your luck with respect, so that it will never turn against you. This time I was going to take the patrol down and try to find Spanish Man's Grave. I wanted to show dirty uniform shirt blue down there and spoil that Medicine for them. The Apaches have been living too long on that old massacre story -- believing too much in their immunity. Flout it in their faces, show them that the gods hate them, too, and you've gone a long way toward making them behave. I want you to take the patrol down."

There haven't been any Apache raids lately, I notice. Because it worked.

89 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-30 16:34 ID:Yx65Z0mn

>>88

good sir, Islam is one of the msot peaceful religions out there. only recently, when we westerners started carving up their land and telling them who was going to own what, did they start pointing out that these jihadist verses and interpreting them as a holy war. The word "jihad" translates to arabic as "strife" or "struggle". it means that they need to struggle to stay within the wills of thei diety. It CAN also mean holy war. Traditionally it did not. Where as chrisitians have historically killed non believers. Chrisitanity has done more harm than islam has because it has been around longer and was radicalized waaaay sooner. Christianity had the inquisitions 9spanish, roman, and vehm), the salem witch hunts, the crusades (we started that. those were muslim lands at that point and while they treated captured christians with dignity, we tortured muslim captives to death). As an agnostic, i can tell you that all religion can fall into either of the two categories that you mentioned. As for waging war with savages, as you put it, You can't. Islam, radicall or otherwise, is an idea.Toquote fiction, " Mr, Cready, behind this mask there is more than just a mask. Behind this mask is an idea and ideas are bulletproof."

Thats why we lost to the vietcong, thats why the Romans couldn't stam out the christians and were forced to adopt christianity, thats why the greeks didn't manage to beat the macabees, why Great Britain lost controll of india thanks to ghandi, and why Martin luther king was so effective. Furthermore, when used on muslims, your idea only makes things worse. If u attack their faith, you really HAVE engaged ina religious jihad with them and according to their faith, they go to heaven when they die fighting such a fight. If you believe this nonsense to be true then logic (being applied with the assumption that said nonsense is actually a fact) would dictate that they should fight just to go to heaven. they believe this is true and will therefore try to fight untill they die and you will have given them justification.
This is why i am agnostic and not atheist. atheists have the same problem the religious people do; they believe only they can be correct and fail to see othe r people's beleifs. we can neither prove nor disprove any religion so the wiser choice is to understand them all to see what motivates it's followers. I look at all religion the way most people look at greek and egyptian mythology. A collection of supernatural stories. The difference is, of course, the contemporary people believe these stories so understanding these is important. i also read this "mythology" understanding that while it is rediculously unlikely, it is possible for one or more of them to actually be true. un likely but feasable.

90 Name: GodsICanBelieveIn : 2008-06-30 19:43 ID:rn0woEbm

>>89

My impression is that the problem is the god of Christianity, islam and judaism. It is the same god. It is a cultural virus that was introduced in the Roman Empire, which was destroyed as a consequence. It is a god of guilt, with a sheepish outlook on life. If the word "god" is changed to "idea" it still makes sense.

The Greek/Roman Gods, on the other side, are Gods I can believe in. They represent all that is good in the West. They are gods with a heroic concept of life. They are human Gods, Gods with a will to live. There is a Goddess of wisdom, for example, whereas it could be argued that the middle eastern god is a god of ignorance and superstition. There is a Bacchus, the God of having a good time, whereas the middle eastern god is a god of guilt.

91 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-30 21:12 ID:EcPobEU4

>>89
State Shinto was an idea too.

92 Name: Citizen : 2008-06-30 22:35 ID:esrBUbR0

>>88

One reason that I don't think that this woll work in the case of Islam is that they have a version of the appocalypse which includes the destruction of Mecca. We go apeshit on them, they think it's the appocalypse. And a jihadi isn't going to give up AL-JIHAD if he thinks the world is ending -- he'll step it up.

Secondly, there are a billion muslims, and only 300 million Americans. The gods better be on our side, 'cause the math ain't. If all muslims turn on us, WE LOSE. They outnumber us 3:1. It would be like a midget going toe to toe with a WWF wrestler. Not gonna be pretty.

I think the best approach is the Akido approach, be gentle and use their energy to defeat them. Try to make them the bad guys in the muslims world.

93 Name: Citizen : 2008-07-01 00:46 ID:EcPobEU4

"The gods better be on our side, 'cause the math ain't."

E=mc^2 is math.

94 Name: Citizen : 2008-07-01 02:57 ID:esrBUbR0

>>93

Pakistan has nukes, and Iran is working on them. So unless you're willing to drop enough nukes to cause a potentially civilization ending nuclear winter, don't go there.

95 Name: Citizen : 2008-07-01 04:35 ID:CsypZt48

Their nukes can't reach North America. Only three country have nukes that can reach America; USA, RUSSIA, China (Alaska)...

Although France and Britian may have submarines...

The real problem is the backwards-ness of one culture. While economic fears are related to economic situations, the arguments against Islamic culture are founded in ideology.

I see this conflict as secular verses religious. What Neitche described as the weakly nature of christianity from this perspective makes it preferable to the muslim culture.

96 Name: Citizen : 2008-07-01 18:47 ID:BYVZOYqI

>>94
The "nuclear winter" hypothesis was discredited twenty years ago, and they would certainly do it to us in an instant if they had the means--which they work feverishly to attain, day after day.

97 Name: Citizen : 2008-07-02 01:24 ID:wby0H8f7

>>96
Seems to be quite true considering that they might have their own unreleased secrets that we don't know yet.

98 Name: Citizen : 2008-07-03 15:32 ID:Yx65Z0mn

>>95 >>96

you guys realize that while "nuclear winter" in the classic sense wouldn't occur and they cannot directly target us, they can irridiate everything, right? They won't block out the sun but if they set off enough nuke, the fall out will be spread and eventually, we will feel the effects of mass radiation poisoning. They don't even have to detonante their nukes anywhere near us or even luanch them. They can just set them off on the top of a buildinging in their own country on a particularly windy day. The radioactive particles will float around in the air and be carried over to us and everywhere in between. I assure you, even if they cannot deliver the payload here, if they feel it is the apocalypse, they will have NO problem pulling off the ULTIMATe Kamikaze attack- setting off as many nuke in their own country as possible to irridiate everyone else. so i suggest we stop making them feel like we are attacking islam. It will only make it worse. ideas are bulletproof. ideas can only be defeated by more influential ideas. If you want to eliminate radical islam, you send moderate muslim cleric over to where the radicals are recruiting the poor, offer them stable lives with jobs and food through said moderate clerics, and disguise all western interests in their land as muslim interests. The common person will not feel like they are being invaded by "infidel" forces and will slowly convert to more moderate idology. without poverty to fuel antiamerican hatred and no obvious signs of our involvement in the middle east, thy have no reaason to radicalize. remember, islam was a very peaceful religion before the west started taking their land. convince them that this isnt happeneing anymore and they will gladdly follow moderate imams. Radical islam has harsh rules that even devout muslims have a hard time living by.

99 Name: Citizen : 2008-07-04 00:10 ID:mZVH7NqY

>>98
1, what "moderate Muslim cleric?"
2, should we have responded to the attack on Pearl Harbor by finding "moderate Shinto clerics" and sending them to Japan?

100 Name: Citizen : 2008-07-04 07:30 ID:3cdgHx2r

>>99
There IS moderates in Muslim society.These guys cares nothing than their own problem instead attacking other people.

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