Anyway...if you've been watching news lately, you'll probably know what I'm talking about. The Iranian president Mohammed Ahmadinejad claimed the holocaust wasn't real and David Irving, a British historian was sued in Austria for his statements about the reality of Holocaust. According to him the camp at Auschwitz was really made as a "Disneyland" for tourists in 1948. Irving has also claimed that Hitler knew nothing about the Holocaust and that Hitler didn't have anything to do with it.
So I'm asking you, do you think the Holocaust never happened?
I don't think so, Anti-Semites are just trying to brainwash other people through "evidence" into believing that it never happened.
Those idiots will eventually convince people. If not in 100 years, then in 200 or 300 years. This is because we're idiots
LOL guess so... :O
ここは何処?
ここは何処?
I don't get why people are so obsessed with the holocaust. It isn't like it was the greatest genocide (even though that really isn't the correct word) of the 20th century. If it didn't happen, who are all of the people in the mass graves?
>>6
My point exactly. That's what the ideology does, isn't it, controlling the meaning of words to control people's thoughts. It's all like this: which murder is to be accused of is only arbitrarily and politically decided.
like >>6 said,
the Holocaust was far from the most gruesome massacre, nor the most systematic one. Stop being obsessed with it as Teh ZOMG MASSACRE! It happened. We need to learn from it. Like every other horrible event in the history of mankind.
People who pretend it didn't happen are either in denial or pure idiots.
I think the place for taking holocaust revisionism seriously is over that way: http://4-ch.net/dqn/
There were plenty of worse genocides in history, only because the jews were the victims it is so overrated today - mostly because every western government sucks ami dick, and jews control amiland.
The holocaust is the universal measuring stick for pain. One holocaust = 100%. Getting kicked in the knee: 0.00000001%. Getting mugged at gunpoint: 0.00006%. Having your family raped and killed in front of you: 1.3%.
No pain could be higher than the holocaust.
Countries like Germany, France and Israel respect the holocaust, by making it illegal to fail to evaluate the holocaust at its 100% pain level (or to consider that it is possible to do worse than the holocaust).
>>10
No, I really don't thing it was because of that jews were main victims (note, main victims, many many others than jews died) that Europe/USA got so hyped up about it. It was because it happened right in front of our eyes. It didn't happend off down there in Europe, like other genocides, or way off in Africa nor Asia, as many many other genocides have happened. But because it happened in a modern time, and right in front of the doorstep of the most influential nations in Europe. That is one of the main reasons for why the holocaust got so hyped up and induced such huge guilt trip in those countries. Because they couldn't berate the neighbouring countries for not having done anything to prevent these awful things for happening, since they themselves were the neighbours.
>>11
The holocaust is 100%? Bullshit. It's damned awful, but there are plenty of pains that can be and are worse than the holocaust.
You are underestimating humans, if there's something they know, it's how to make other people suffer.
>>12 is antisemitic. I therefore won't argue with him.
It´s more than 60 years ago. Why do people care about it? Revisionism will win because it would be the best for all of humanity if we could just forget about this pointless "universal measuring stick". Most of all because a lot of people take it as an excuse for Israel to commit even worse crimes.
I am going to be labeled anti semitic for this because it takes a somewhat unfavorable view towards the holocaust.
First of all, I KNOW it happened. And it wasn't right, but it wasn't the worst thing that happened in the 20th century when it came to the wholesale slaughter of human life.
Because
6 Million alleged Jews(I personally don't think ALL were Jewish..well...forget that let's just say PEOPLE) were killed in camps.
COMPARED TO
20 Million Russians killed under Stalin
Untold Millions killed in Rwanda
Millions more in the Congo
....I could go on.
I think because the Jewish people bring more attention to their former plight that it forces people to feel sorry for them when there are others that have been almost ignored by history because they didn't have the resources or the attention.
Personally, being Jewish isn't a race. It is a religion. I subscribe to no religion, but I will agree when it is said that worse has happened to more people.
Mr. Random Anonymous, consider yourself officially labeled as an Anti-Semite.
Thank you, Mr. Random Anonymous. That was easier than I thought. All I had to do was objectively state the truth in a neutral manner without giving preference or deference to any one side.
I did not know that there were "protected" races, religions, or creeds in the world but I am wrong.
I mean who cares about 20 million Russians(some of which were Jewish too) or almost 60 million Africans(black Africans at that) total throughout the 20th century?
6 Million people who subscribed to the jewish religion in Germany were slaughtered!!
I'm sorry. The Holocaust was the absolute worst loss of human life in the 20th Century. What was I thinking? /end sarcasm.
>>15
No, you're just DQN.
About 1/3 of those killed in the holocaust were not Jewish.
The holocaust was unique because it happend in a highly developed country and, unlike many others, it worked agianst the ruling party's financial and military intrests (look at the number of Jews who fought for germany in WWI)
>>17
I hate jews, they always complain about anti-semitism.
Correct me if I´m wrong, but in Germany it is FORBIDDEN not to believe the holocaust was real. Why on earth would they forbid something like that...? Unless........
Unless..?
>>20
Unless Neo-Nazi's hurt a country's reputation?
I think you are probably wrong on that BTW. I am pretty sure its illegal to display swastikas (of the nazi variety) in public though.
>>20
That's easy. That is because the holocaust was real. Nobody in his right mind would think otherwise, evidence is here. We definitely don't want people going around and telling lies. That's why this lie is illegal. Why would you oppose a law that is only meant to defend truth? The only reason I can see, is that you are a neo-nazi and/or an anti-semite.
>>20
The only thing that is forbidden is the denial of the holocaust.
See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial#Holocaust_denial_examined
>>24
"Public denial of the Holocaust is a criminal offence in Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Israel, Lithuania, Netherlands, Poland, Romania, Slovakia and Switzerland, and is punishable by fines and jail sentences."
Sheesh! Wankers!
"Numerous accounts have been given (including evidence presented in court cases) of claimed "facts" and "evidence"; however, independent research has shown these claims to be based upon flawed research, biased statements, and even deliberately falsified evidence."
Sounds equally applicable to both sides´ statements, to me.
Damn it >>1, why did you make this thread while 4chan was in town!
you don't dismiss the gravity of an atrocity by trying to compare it to other things, which seems to be the attitude of a lot of posts in this thread. that's like telling someone to get over the loss of their family because you know someone else who lost a family of larger size. you also wouldn't tell them to "get over it" because time has elapsed. if you feel the need to belittle the suffering of holocaust victims for whatever reason, whatever, but don't try to justify your attitude by playing the comparison card
I don't understand how they can jail you for believing the holocaust did not exist. I'm not saying I support such thinking, but you'd think we have more freedoms and rights to have the freedom to think and say whatever we want. Couldn't the extremists suggest that constant holocaust-mongering is "hurting their feelings"?
Maybe saying something like "the holocaust didn't exist / you jews deserved it" should be something to be countered by personal vendetta, but I don't think the state should interfere in such manner.
>>28
If someone was whining about "their lost family" ALL THE TIME for 60 years... I´d tell them to get over it.
The sooner you get over it, the sooner life can return to peace. If you carry memories with you, you'll be at unease for the rest of your life.
I was wondering about Japan in WW2. Americans caused a ton of devestation, but they don't keep whining about it (I rarely hear about it compared to the Holocaust victims that's been shoved down our throats left and right, in school history class, etc) and because of it America shares good relations with Japan, relatively unfettered. I do still see a lot of Americans that hate Japanese for Pearl Harbor, but I think it's unjustified in comparison. If anything, Japanese should apologize, but Americans should kneel and apologize, for their action was far worse.
>>31
Wow, the grammar is terrible. 4-ch needs spellcheck ;;
>>31
I've heard people compare what the Japanese did to the Koreans and Chinese to the holocaust, but... I really don't know what to say other than that you are an idiot.
>>30 >>31 i don't think that anyone has been "whining" as you put it. if this is your impression, then maybe this says more about your sensitivity towards the subject than anything else. it comes down to this: if injustices have been perpetuated, then at a minimum there is not only a right to raise grievances, but a duty to raise awareness to minimise the chance of these injustices repeating in the future. maybe everyone who suggests "getting over it" should examine what it is about these issues being discussed in the public consciousness that makes them so uncomfortable.
>>33 Wikipedia says:
> Public denial of the Holocaust is a criminal offence in Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Italy, Israel, Lithuania, Netherlands, Poland, Romania, Slovakia and Switzerland, and is punishable by fines and jail sentences.
Isn't that great? You can be jailed in these countries for peacefully expressing an opinion about history. However, the section has a factual accuracy dispute tag, so it's probably bullshit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial
>>28
If you were refering to my post, you did not understand it. I did not say that the holocaust was not a horrible thing that should not be forgotten. I said that the holocaust gets more attention than it deserves. There is little mention of the other genocides mentioned in this thread yet everyone knows about the holocaust.
I do think that overtime, people need to stop whining about it though (but never forget). Slavery has been over for a couple of generations in 96% of the world. The number of people that can legitimately say that they were affected adversely by slavery is very small. 100 years from now the same will be true with the holocaust.
Re: Japan
I've heard from several Japanese that they do not hold animus about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. For the most part, the younger generations do not care about what their parents did. I'm sure there are people that lost family or friends in the attack on Pearl Harbour and some of them very well might hate the Japanese still. However, Pearl Harbour certainly was a valid military target. I'm not going to go into if the war was justifiable, but certainly it wasn't the only time a country has tried to make an empire through war. Even America has done so.
The world revolves around double standards. Get over it.
This just in!
David Irving was sentenced to jail for three years just for expressing his views! Wow!
Guess the West is run by Jews after all...
You can defame gays and Muslims, but no, not those poor whining Jews! Otherwise you'll end up in jail! I just became an anti Semite, that I have to say about this.
>>41
http://www.ihr.org/ has a link to a source for that btw. The BBC news article also says:
COUNTRIES WITH LAWS
AGAINST HOLOCAUST DENIAL
Austria
Belgium
Czech Republic
France
Germany
Israel
Lithuania
Poland
Romania
Slovakia
Switzerland
Rather sad, I had thought at least a few of those countries allowed free speech.
You can have all the free speech you want, unless it goes against what the people in power want.
And yet, I have absolutely no problem with trying to outlaw malicious stupidity.
Outlawing stupidity is more of a challenge, though.
I like how all these censorship issues and scandalous government / corporate issues are coming to light, these days. It is perhaps through the perforation of the internet that made it possible on a scale that was impossible in the past. The whole Google in China thing has gotten very big, as has the US gov't tapping American phone lines issue.
Maybe this will bring about reform, but I guess what we're living with right now has been satisfactory enough.
Are we still feeling sorry for the Jews? Yeah they've really suffered more than anyone else in the history of the universe.
Boo Hoo. Get over it. The reason most people don't like Jews is because a lot of them shove and force crap down everyone elses throat. Nobody would even care enough to dislike them if they didn't do that. Me, personally, I could not possibly care any less about someone else's religious beliefs, but I'm just sick of the Jewish pity party.
Go ahead and label me an Anti-Semite, that would really break my heart. Boo Hoo. Seriously, get over it.
Nobody piss and moans about the Native American Genocide
or the Russian genocide or the African Genocides or even the Chinese Genocide during WWII(which was so brutal that even Nazis found it inhumane). BUT WE NEVER HEAR THE FREAKING END ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST.
It happened. It sucked. Hope it never happens again, but please We've all heard enough whining for one century.
>>46
Can you please tell me more about the Chinese Genocide? What was it about?
Wow, there's a lot of trolls itt. Who'd've thought?
Carry on.
>>48
We will.
BOMB ISRAEL TO HELL!
I BLAME THE WELSH!
The holocaust happend, laws limiting free speech are wrong.
Die thread die.
> The holocaust happend, laws limiting free speech are wrong.
This reminds me a lot of http://paulgraham.com/say.html
Not that I know more about the holocaust than our country decides to teach, of course.
>>52
Define laws limiting free speech. These laws against denying the holocaust are reactionary and do not provide prior restraint. While they may have a chilling effect, they do not limit free speech. There are also obvious cases where free speech is not a good thing. Should you be able to get away with lying in court?
>>48 ltns
>>53
Why is it that I've never heard of this paul graham guy before, yet in the last two days I've been linked to three different pages of his on varying subjects from all different places?
http://paulgraham.com/hs.html from someone's blog
http://www.paulgraham.com/opensource.html from some other 4-ch thread
He seems to be able to write decently and had a good head on his shoulders, but that is neither here nor there.
>>46
Just because those atrocities are not as frequently discussed as the holocaust (which I don't perceive to be raised to the extent that you're kicking up such a big fuss about), doesn't mean that they shouldn't be. These people aren't keeping quiet to keep you happy; they lack the visibility in the public domain to raise these issues. It seems to me that either you wish everyone would just shut the fuck up so you wouldn't have to think about it, or you're trying to rationalise your bigoted attitude towards the Jewish people ("most people don't like Jews"?). Think about it, who's really doing the whining here?
Speaking of whining, the biggest "oh, we poor victims!" whiners are as follows:
1) Jews (the Holocaust)
2) Blacks (slavery)
...and the people who actually have a reason to whine, they don't, like Rwandans. The rest of the world just let Hutus slaughter the Tutsis (the Rwandan genocide) in 1994. The member states of the UN refused to intervene and France was the only country that at least did something: evacuated all foreign nationals from Rwanda! [sarcasm]Wohoo! Way to go! The saviors of Rwanda![/sarcasm]
And where was the self-appointed "world's police", USA?
Oh my god.
>>56
So what's your point? That it's a virtue to keep quiet when you've been subjected to horrific injustices? To pretend to be abhorred about the Rwandan genocide while saying that Jews and African-Americans have zero cause for grievance is a bit hypocritical isn't it?
My point is that the Rwandan genocide happened only gasp! 12 years ago while black people still whine about slavery which ended some 140 years ago. The same goes to Jews, they may have a bigger reason to whine because their genocide happened some 60 years ago. But they still haven't been directly affected by the genocide, unlike the people in Rwanda of whom many still remember the horrible war.
Why should Jews and blacks of today be apologized when it has never affected them? If we follow this logic, then Russians could very well demand an official apology from the Mongolians for what they did just 800 years ago!
>>59
a) The ethical repugnance of an action is not proportionate to the amount of time elapsed, as you seem to be suggesting.
b) "it has never affected them"? Um, excuse me? The Jewish people have not been adversely affected by losing a sizable proportion of their population whose children would have gone on to become leaders, thinkers and educators? The African-American population have not been adversely affected by the exploitation of their ancestors to lay the basis for the system of white privilege that exists today? There has been no collective psychological anguish in either case?
>>54
Demographics are involved. This guy's writings correlate with a lot of the interests you'll find in a lot of people you'll find here, and a lot of people who are pointed here to read one essay tend to waste the day reading all of them.
I think we all kind of agree in a little way.
Let's just do our best to raise awareness of current genocides. Whining about the whiners will not make these go away!
>>13
So, for stating what >>18 did, I'm suddenly a bad guy?
I have nothing against jews, I'm just cynical a lot nowadays, and above all, I like to use logic and to put things into a proper perspective.
check out http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/ , i bet you're the kind of person who'd scream murder and not realize that the site mocks both stereotypes in such an exaggerated manner that it highlights hidden discrimination and makes people more aware of actions they'd normally not reflect on doing.
look at your history text book, it was probably published in JEWyork
P.S. jews did wtc
P.P.S. .999... != 1 (afro-jewish conspiracy)
P.P.P.S go to stormfront.org (vote islam)
And I bet you're the kind of person who puts up strawman images in your mind of people you disagree with so you can feel properly superior to them!
Wait, is this about the Iranian Holocaust conference?
laffo
WARNING! JEW PRESS!
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/685642.html
The earth is flat, did you know?
BUMP
>>71 EAT SHIT.
>>72 is afraid of the truth.
ARE YOU TELLING ME THE MOTOCROSS NEVER HAPPEN