Do you think women can feel what amounts to 'ronery'?
I was considering this the other day.
And I thought of 2 of the roneriest books I know, Notes from the Undeground and White Nights, both by the same author: Dostoevsky and to be honest I couldn't imagine a woman penning anything like that simply because if a woman wants a boyfriend she'll just get one quite easily within a few days (maximum time a month maybe). Women basically don't feel loneliness, what they feel is temporary solitude, but never total 'alone-ness' in the same way a man can. I think the only way a woman could possibly feel this is if she was hideously fat and ugly, in which case she can appeal to fetishists. For a man being antisocial is enough, and you CANNOT claim antisocial women have the same experiences because it appeals to the inner 'hero' in men who want to save the damsel in distress when they see a quiet shy girl.
Is being a woman easy mode as far as love and romance goes?
And to those who say 'having sex doesn't mean you are any less lonely'.... lol, why indulge in such transient, ultimately self-destructive behaviour with lots of different guys then?
I personally think the quiet, shy girl who is always alone is something of an archetype that has no basis in fact, usually she has boyfriends and sex.
>>7
I hold men to the same standards as women. And in general, women are more promiscuous. And the state that civilisation is in right now does depress me, gender aside. So don't try to tell me that sleeping around has anything to do with female empowerment.
>If a woman sleeps around with no digression, that doesn't make her any less of a person
It does make her less of a person in my eyes. Worth is subjective. And I apply the same to men, for the record.
I'm not the OP, but I would like to know what exactly women (and certain types of men) are sleeping around so much for if it only makes them feel degraded and doesn't ease their feelings of loneliness.
>Gender is not a factor
Don't be ridiculous. You know it is. Let go of your political correctness for a minute and be objective.
I think less of a woman who can't think an intelligent thought and sleeps around because it is an animal urge.
I greatly admire women who are intelligent and have considered their desire for sex, are sensual, are not easy and are above all as I say intelligently sexual.
There is nothing less attractive than a slut in heels with lipstick mascara makeup all over her face looking like a clown with a sequined dress that only covers half her ass with piss running down her leg and her breasts slipping out of her bra, drunk, with a dick in every hole.
ITT, frothing gynophobics make fools of themselves. Very educational...
I know women hate rationality and it is anathema to you, but you could at least try and employ reason and logic...
im a woman.. and i am ronery :(
>>8
Fuck your shit. Women have just as many gender driven stereo types as men. Women are expected to be maternal, nurturing, soft, dainty, and submissive. They're expected to be able to cook and sew from birth. Women are expected to want children and naturally be good with them. Don't give me any bullshit about who has "more" double standards and use that to justify breeding more of them.
>>18
Women aren't expected to be submissive, they ARE submissive. Haven't you ever seen porn?
>>But men who act like "sluts" are totally exempt from being branded as so and the thought of men sleeping around isn't "depressing"?
It's far harder for men to get something to fuck than for women. A man has actually to work to get together/fuck a woman, while a woman just has to approach a guy and say "fuck me" and he'll do it.
It's funny how women who participate in these discussions fail to grasp this. Guess that's how the female brain works.
>>It's far harder for men to get something to fuck than for women.
Maybe, but that doesn't make the man's actions any better than a woman's actions. It's still just as bad.
>while a woman just has to approach a guy and say "fuck me" and he'll do it.
Really? Are you ready to fuck any woman that exists? If so, you are a superman, and you should get a medal for your social services. As for myself, I can see a large panel of women I wouldn't want to have intercourse with (actually, for quite a few I would even fail to have an erection, my horrified penis going into retraction-get-me-out-of-here mode).
>>24 those 'many guys' must be as common as unicorns
>>24
And I'm so sure they're all upstanding citizens that women would actually want to sleep with. Anyone, regrdless of gender, who would take the offer of "fuck me" from a stranger on the spot is probably not someone worth cultivating a worthwhile relationship with anyway.
"It's far harder for men to get something to fuck than for women. A man has actually to work to get together/fuck a woman, while a woman just has to approach a guy and say "fuck me" and he'll do it."
I think that says something for men too. Wouldn't it be the men that are so lonely that they would have sex with whatever walks into their line of vision?
Don't talk about women like we're sex-hungry animals. I don't think of men like rapists 24/7.
>>27 , thank you for being one of the only sane people in this conversation.
Men are horny for sex, women want feelings alongside sex. Seriously, some people are making this more complicated than it is.
>Men are horny for sex, women want feelings alongside sex
Actually, it's usually the other way around in real life.
Definitely not...woman do not get lonely, they will alway be surrounded by men...when a woman needs to talk to a guy, she will get it and without the bitching and bull shit, however if a guy wants to talk to a woman, then its a different story.
as for the sexual and emotional needs...most woman dont usually need them, which is why most men feel alot more lonely compared to woman.
Ok I’ve tried not to respond to this but I can’t just let it go the reasoning here is so messed up. This will take a while but it’s important. First off we are all animals so we want sex it is natural whether you are man or woman you want sex from a desirable partner as part of our natural urges. This causes jealousy from people look at how animals fight over mates our response as humans is jealousy and hatred towards those that have sex when we don’t get any. For example OP and the thread in general I forget what it is. Enter the convoluted society we live in for centuries we have lived in a male dominated society putting many pressures on women to be a certain way recently women suddenly received more rights from the woman’s liberation movement stuff like abortions and birth control gave women more control over their sex lives. However many of the old standards towards women are still in place. This creates a confusing situation for both sides women are now free to have sex when they please while still holding some of the pressures of the old male dominated society and men still have the same constraints as before. Basically it makes sense for men to be lonely because they are out of the loop for now women are getting equal rights in a society that has not yet adjusted so women are actually gaining the upper hand.( In a wrong way of course but that’s subjective and off topic)
I’m not done yet though this is a very complex topic and requires more discussion. There are always exceptions and this situation does not apply to everyone some people are inherently out of the loop will never fit in and be lonely be they male or female. Some people are also stupid you forget we are all animals craving a satisfaction some people formulate morals and hold themselves up towards ideals but most people just want to get as much out of life as they can and these people see sex as fun and an escape these are the slutty girls and the guys that do them. They don’t care if it doesn’t make sense if it doesn’t make them happy in the long run or eventually hurts them. They are just trying to satisfy a need to fill their own loneliness with sex. This however doesn’t work look at all the rich millionaires that kill themselves the people that have everything are often extremely unhappy sex is the same. It should be noted sex is more than just a physical action it affects the mind as well as the body it creates nerve connections in the head that are hard to break its habit forming and can lead to associations such as sex equals love and sex equals happiness even if it’s not true. These women are victims of their own choice and their lack of knowledge as to what is true and good. Loneliness can be felt in a room filled with people or by yourself it is not dependant on what you have or what you are going to do it is also subjective someone can feel lonely about one situation while another would feel quite happy. Not all women chose this just like not all men chose neglect their morals some women are the same and actually have morals. I know it’s hard to believe but reason is powerful and I know a couple girls who are out of the loop of societal problems one who I dated that never had sex and absolutely refused to do it with anyone because of her religion and because she was almost raped. A year before I met her she tried killing herself and was in terrible shape for the a full year no friends no boyfriends or anything she was a high school dropout and spent some time in a psychiatric hospital her parents hated her she had no one if that is not loneliness then nothing is. There will always be exceptions don’t assume the whole population is conformed to the same set of ideals. Most people are stupid because we neglect our ideals and morals because we feel confined by them there is freedom in them but we can’t see it until it’s too late.
>>33 I commend your efforts to contribute constructively to this wrecked discussion. Kudos to you ^_^
My only comment is that I don't see anything wrong in being casual about sex, so long as you protect yourself and respect others.
>if a woman wants a boyfriend she'll just get one quite easily within a few days (maximum time a month maybe)
Sure, if she's willing to be with ANY guy. Are you willing to be with ANY girl?
It is easier for women to find casual sex than it is for men, but meaningless sex just compounds loneliness. Not to mention the social stigma that comes along with it.
>>37
facepalm
OP puts too much emphasis on sex. I don't think any of his arguments are non-sex related and cover the emotional side of love. If loneliness was simply getting not enough sex, then buy a hooker and save us your moaning about being deprived.
>>37
I don't think you understood my post. I, personally, don't have casual sex. But I know that it is easier for women to find a casual sex partner than it is for men. However, the fact that women have easier access to meaningless sex doesn't ease loneliness. Often, placing such little importance on who you sleep with cheapens the whole experience and makes you feel an even stronger need for real affection and love.
Seriously, this is the most obvious troll I have ever happened upon in my time channing. Great try with the baiting, brah, but try harder next time. Holy obvious shit.
I feel this thread got somewhat derailed right from the beginning. Here's my thoughts on OP's post disregarding everything after that:
No, women* can not feel loneliness to the same extent. This is not to say that women can not, in an absolute sense, feel loneliness.
For an average lonely woman, the source of loneliness is not finding a man she finds a particularly good match/attractive/whatever. She may be and very probably is surrounded by men just like OP said, but in her case, unlike in some other women's, none of these men are of the ultra-alpha-male caliber. Even though she feels lonely, it is temporary; it's NEVER too late for her to get into a long-lasting relationship so long as she is fertile, and she knows this.
For a man, like OP has said, being shy** is enough to guarantee an extremely low success rate in the sexual/relationship market. There are many other things that can also contribute to this, of course. Any man who is 21+ and a virgin knows well that it is better to NEVER tell ANYONE about it, for example. A man who has been without anything happening in the sexual/relationships front knows that it is probable that it will stay that way... It's kind of like when applying for a job: a long empty period definitely does not look good to any prospective employer. The loneliness a man can feel in a situation like this is fundamentally different from a woman's loneliness.
As a side note, I absolutely refuse to accept the talk about casual sex 'compounding loneliness' or that it has 'social stigma'... Even if something like that exists, the upsides of casual sex easily make up for them. The vast majority of (non-religious (a majority in my country)) people who have game are sexually active even when they are not in a relatinship, and there is a reason for that. The majority of people of my acquaintance who don't have any game at all are frustrated, and I suppose there is a reason for that, too
(* excluding maybe the clinically obese, deaf-mutes, literal hikikomoris who NEVER get out and other statistically insignificant extreme cases)
(** again, excluding men who are fabulously rich or whatever)
>it's NEVER too late for her to get into a long-lasting relationship so long as she is fertile, and she knows this.
You say it yourself, women become less attractive to males much faster than the opposite. For men, becoming older is not so much of a problem, it can even be a plus. For women, it's much more problematic.
So perhaps young females have less problems finding a partner than males, but this changes rather quickly with time. I think the deal is sweeter for men.
Also, I definitely don't believe that the "virgin" stigma only affects men, there are plenty of women terrified of admitting they never had sex.
Well, I did say "so long as she is fertile". This is something I can't base on my own experiences, but I have a very hard time believing that men in their 40s wouldn't still be attracted to women of their own age.
If you go much over 40, then yes, that might not be true anymore. Another thing is that on average, men die much younger than women (at least in my country), but I really can't think of it as any consolation that I might have some chances with women when I'm in my 60s, ie. when I'm going to die in 5-15 years anyway. 40 years from now on, I'll probably have killed myself if nothing changes, anyway.
And yes, it might well be that many women are terrified of admitting they never had sex. But very few women are in such a situation. I would be perfectly happy and ready to lose my virginity to very nearly any woman I see in the train every day when going to the university, but of course there's no chance of it happening. If I was a woman, it would be another thing entirely.
But not every woman would just throw herself at any man on a train.
I am in that situation, so don't blow that scenario off just because it's an "unlikely" one. I'm a 23 year old virgin woman who has never been in a relationship before; I'm 23 and I've never even been kissed. I'm a fairly normal person and I am interested in being in a romantic relationship with a man, but I have not yet met a man that I have wanted to have a romantic relationship with. I am lonely.
It may be argued that as a healthy, attractive 23 year old woman I could have any man in any bar in my city without making much effort, but I don't just want a random sexual fling, and while I have been open to dating, I have not found another person that I have wanted to date. And I am lonely.
According to the posts in this thread, as an attractive 23 year old virgin I could "fuck" any guy I wanted and that should cure me of my loneliness. But also according to the posts in this thread, doing so would make me a "slut" and lower my worth as a human being. And according to the OP, as a woman I cannot be truly lonely. But here I am, quite so.
>But not every woman would just throw herself at any man on a train. [...] I could have any man in any bar in my city without making much effort, but I don't just want a random sexual fling
Well, that is kind of the point I was trying to make. Even though you no doubt are lonely, you know that in an absolute sense your value in the sexual/relationships market is easily high enough to mantain high standards. Say, if you wanted to have kids and were unfortunate enough to not have found the man of your dreams by the time you are 30, you could still find and settle with some partner without barely any effort at all.
In a man's case, it simply does not work that way, for reasons that IIRC have been explained in this thread several times already. A very long period of no sexual activity at all can, for fairly good reasons, completely and permanently crush your self-esteem, so that you will literally stay virgin loser until you die.
FWIW, I don't think that sexual activity makes is unacceptable or makes a woman a 'slut'. But another thing is that a woman with much sexual experience is extremely unlikely to have any understanding for my own sexual inexperience, much more so than a woman who is a virgin. After reading a lot of related sites and forums on the net, I am fairly convinved that a woman who is used to getting fucked by alpha males would very probably just laugh and reject me on the spot if I somehow managed to get in the bed with her.
>>45
I would say that you answered the question of this thread... for whatever reason may that be, you're still in a position, where you reject potential partners... I'm not telling that the loneliness you feel is fake or what, but it still is something different from the situation, where you try as hard as you can to be with someone you have fallen for and you get rejected for various reasons...
let's take a situation: you sit in a bar... I like you, so I'll come, say hi, have a little chat maybe and ask for your number... you'll say no because you don't see me as a potential date... so as a result, we are both staying lonely but what did it cost you? well, one word ,,no" (maybe sentence that makes it sound less harsh)... and what did it cost me? I'm a little shy, so I had to took up courage for just saying hi to you... then it was that feeling through our chat to not fuck it up and at the end spending energy on taking up courage again and ask for your number... and rejection, not really positive feeling... so the loneliness we feel at the end of that evening may be the same, but I think I sacrificed much more than you did... doesn't seem too much maybe, but count it for every girl I try and it gets pretty frustrating
What I find funny in this thread is the idea that having sex will help feeling less lonely. If that was so, hookers would be the socialites of this world ^_^
I mean, you can have sex with someone and have zero communication with him. Think about it: you're waiting in a line for your movie ticket. You're surrounded by people. Does that mean that you are not alone? You can be lonely in a crowd, and you can be lonely while fucking.
So I think this thread would become more constructive if the omega-males here explained whether they are talking about real loneliness, simple sexual frustration, or just low self-esteem. All of these can be inter-related, but are NOT the same thing.
Well, theoretically speaking it's both "real" loneliness and sexual frustration. I know I am too retarded to hold any kind of long-lasting relationship since I can't even talk properly in my native language, but at least an active sex life would be a substantial improvement. (and yes, I have thought about hookers, but I'm too afraid of STDs)
But that is all theoretical. I've never known a man who could get sex from women but not relationships - not saying they don't exist, but they certainly don't exist in such numbers as the people who claim about men "only wanting sex" seem to be implying (and from a biological point of view it understandable that a lot of women wouldn't have sex with a man they don't, at least on some level, consider a candidate for a relationship). Loneliness and sexual frustration are not the same thing, but from a man's point of view they correlate so strongly that they can essentially be equated.
Hookers would, and in the past were (when they were termed courtesans), the socialites of the world in certain cases. I think that the stigma comes from a 2-fold position, one - (no pun intended) the job sucks, probably in ways min wage workers could relate to. Second, it sort of 'cheats' the natural system in that you can mate with someone that's above your station, but at a cost that's relatively affordable with obvious scaling.
Oh and it's criminalized for some reason?
This is not disagreeing with the possible lack of emotional bonds during sex.
Back from the detour, in general I don't think so. Women tend to have more emotional bonds/support than guys, in fact men tend to rely on the women in their lives to provide it. So even at their lowest, women tend to have a greater chance of having someone to reach out to, as opposed to men who tend to be completely isolated. This is due to a variety of issues, but mostly expected behavior and socialization. Side note: hence the untreated mental illness ratio skewing far to males, notably depression.
Because humans tend to rely on females to ebb the loneliness away and of the bonding nature of women, it would seem to me that men are disadvantaged, if they can't obtain womens' support.
Not that I'm saying certain people (regardless of gender) can't feel loneliness to the a certain extent, jut that women naturally and socially tend to be more resistant to it than men.
>it's both "real" loneliness and sexual frustration
good, that's what I wanted to hear. Acknowledgement that sex and loneliness are different things, even if they can overlap.
>Loneliness and sexual frustration are not the same thing, they correlate so strongly that they can essentially be equated.
I see what you mean, but not really: you can be sexually frustrated, but not lonely (think of a relationship where one of the partners does not want to have sex). As for the opposite, of course it exists, if the man buys his sex, which is quite common. Perhaps also in some kinds of dysfunctional marriages, where the only thing holding things up is sex (I have no experience of that, though, maybe it's very rare). Theoretically, you also have the case of married people having sex on the side. Both will want to maintain their current relationship, but don't scoff at an affair or two.
>Hookers would, and in the past were (when they were termed courtesans), the socialites of the world in certain cases.
You're talking about modern day escort girls, etc. They still do exist, and the gutter hookers have also always existed. Nothing new from that side. Sex alone does not make you socially successful, it can often even degrade your "value". Courtesans and escort girls can be successful because they combine sex services with beauty and social skills. As for the criminalization of prostitution, I don't agree with it, only if there is exploitation associated.
>women tend to have a greater chance of having someone to reach out to, as opposed to men who tend to be completely isolated. This is due to a variety of issues, but mostly expected behavior and socialization. Side note: hence the untreated mental illness ratio skewing far to males, notably depression.
I totally agree with you, except for the last sentence: starting from adolescence, depression is 4-5 times more prevalent in women than in men. It's only at 70 that men reach equivalent levels of depression as women. So according to your reasoning, women should be 4-5x more lonely than men, but of course, depression and loneliness are again different beasts
Key word is untreated. Women are far more likely than men to seek treatment. Also, according to the Mayo clinic, it's something like 2 times the chance over their lifetime. Men with depression are more likely to die by suicide than women with depression, even though women tend to attempt more often. They may be different beasts, but I'm sure a significant amount of depressed people are lonely.
this is so ridiculous. how old are you kids, seriously? of course women are capable of feeling loneliness. it may not be for the same reasons as men, but how can you possibly qualify or quantify the extent to which we feel it? yes, i could go out and have sex with whomever (and i'm failing to see how that would concern you, anyway), but i don't want just anyone. there is someone very specific i am in love with, and no matter what i do or say, that person won't like me back. it doesn't matter to me if i could have every last thing my heart desires-- i want to be with that one person, but i can't and i feel miserable because of it. i'm sorry if this is not hardcore enough for you, but it's caused me considerable stress and pain, and as far as i'm concerned it counts as loneliness. hate to break it to you emokids, but you're not the only ones with problems in this world. everyone's got 'em, regardless of gender or whatever your tiny brain thinks.
>>53 >Key word is untreated.
Oops, missed that one. I thus stand corrected.
I'll confess and say that I didn't read the thread in its entirety, but in response to whether women feel loneliness or not, they do. Something not considered is the gendered context under which loneliness operates. Each gender expresses loneliness in unique ways. Now, I'm not saying that there is a uniform 'female' or 'male' response to loneliness but there are patterns that are fairly common. In my circle of friends, when my guy friends are going through a 'lonely' period, they tend to clam up. For my girl friends, they tend to talk about their loneliness. They may have that 'damsel in distress' appeal, but when guys respond to that call with the sole purpose of being a hero, it actually makes them feel even more isolated. The thing is that women may not want to be saved; they just want to be understood. Ever felt that you were alone among friends? Yes, you talk and you socialize. You may give off the 'damsel in distress' air and all; but what good is the knight in shining armor slaying the dragon if the princess feels nothing for him? In a sense, it sucks because sometimes this makes some women feel obligated to feel something for the person that tried to 'open' them up even if there isn't any sexual attraction or intimate affection. That's how my female friends described their loneliness.
That first argument was so amusing even thou it was flawed
What I'm inferring from 56 and 54 is that for women, loneliness tends to translate into not being able to have sex with the top tier men in terms of looks and social status?
So basically every woman who doesn't have the hunk is lonely?
I'm surprised that the word "trust" wasn't mentioned at all in DIS HERE FRED.