I have seen a few threads lately where guys complain about how girls never approach them. My question is: so what?
What it means for you to approach a girl is you will have to be courageous and take a risk. You feel that there is this demand being put upon you by the female sex: if you approach you might or might not succeed, if you don't approach you are guaranteed no success. Us girls... all we have to do is sit around and let the guys come to us, so easy, so unfair!~
Except that we are being sized up and judged based on how thin our waist is, how big our boobs are, what kind of clothes we are wearing, and how pretty we are overall. It doesn't matter how intelligent a girl is, or successful, or what attitude she takes on life. I despise the thought that guys are looking at me and may be automatically rejecting me because my hair is short, I don't bother with makeup, and that I select my shoes for comfort and not sex appeal.
Sure, being judged at face value is unfair for both sexes. Which has it worse, where you are judged on your level of confidence or judged on your appearance. Which sex is the most shallow here?
>Which sex is the most shallow here?
The females.
>So girls should approach guys, eh?
Yes, if they want to...
>Except that we are being sized up and judged based on how thin our waist is, how big our boobs are, what kind of clothes we are wearing, and how pretty we are overall. It doesn't matter how intelligent a girl is, or successful, or what attitude she takes on life.
What the fuck are you just trolling? Especially on this forum where you are guaranteed to find only guys who prefer flat chested girls.
And look at all the threads about conflicted guys falling for the ugly girl with great personality. I know I made one although in /love/.
>Which sex is the most shallow here?
Neither sex is inherently shallow... but I ask you, just which poster in this thread is the most shallow?
Well really, it's not so much a fear of rejection as it is a fear of being arrested. And believe me, if a woman has an asshole personality, I can't find her beautiful, even if she won the genetic lottery. I honestly can't stand to look at her.
>>Which has it worse, where you are judged on your level of confidence or judged on your appearance.
How about neither? Instead, let's make our attractions to genuine humanity and decency instead of shallow gimmicks of masculinity and fake plastic bimbos? It's infuriating to know that some guys really can learn to love someone ugly for their personality and be turned off by shit personality but even some asshole can automatically be rendered sexy for a woman just because he's confident, and will always be more attractive to a woman than some unassuming guy who has no issues, but isn't so confident as to run red lights and is on the wrong side of the law, because it takes balls to do something like that. That's more than insulting, it's downright subhuman.
In fact, now that I think about it, it's really the idea that women love assholes and will always find them attractive based on their asshole-ness because it requires a lot of balls to be a criminal or a bad boy, that really gets me. Guys at the very least have the decency to find something attractive that isn't inherently vile.
And of course, any man who is shy in asking a woman out doesn't deserve the girl because guess what, no matter how much of a good person you are, if you are more cautious in situations or respectful of people without sacrificing your needs, then you're not worth anyone's time amirite?
I don't know what it is, but I agree with anonygod here. Females always go for the asshole.
I consider myself pretty (male) and I am always nice to girls, without fail. I am repectful and well mannered towards everybody. Guess how many girlfriends I have had? None! That's right. I suppose 'twould be best to shit on their face and punch their stomach, then they might go out with me, cause girls respect that.
The rampant generalizations on both sides are stupid. Yes, girls are being sized up all the time, but it does not mean that the boy will always go for the prettiest, far from it. Having a great personality is a great asset. And it's not like boys are not evaluated either, right?
As for girls never approaching guys, I don't know in which planet you live, but that's not my experience at all,...
My experience is straight forward. Men and women who take the initiative are more often rejected, but they also are more successful in getting what they want. After all, it's not a big deal to fail a couple of times, if you end up getting a hit. It's much worse not even trying and failing all the time, or even be picked up by someone who is not our first choice.
> my hair is short, I don't bother with makeup, and that I select my shoes for comfort and not sex appeal
firstly if you want to know about my life, I am a Guy and have this crush, and fancy this girl for 5yrs, going 6yrs soon and I have never talked to her, and only know her from friends (they gave me her personality; shy, quiet, gentle, innocent, soft voiced, reserved) and her general appearance can be described has like yourself, short light brown hair, with a sort of side fringe going on, pure shiny innocent warm eyes, wears no make-up(whenever I see her at least), dont know about shoes, I dont pay attention to shoes, but has a small petite body frame, flat chest, and cute baby-face, but looks mature enough that she would look over 18.
= Have lack knowing the male gender, 'typical' boys would judge a girls APPEARANCE of attractiveness from body frame size(natural size and shape of body), well this might just be me, but I think guys in general are put of with skinny girls that look like they have an eatting disorder or girls who be cant lifted by their counter-part, I mean that when I see a girl, bigger than me (she can be big but not to an extend she would be not possible to lift by her counter-part). and the "Welcoming face expression" i.e Smile, Eye contact, etc. After the first stage is complete for APPEARANCE factors there is the second stage, which is the PERSONALITY, Personality of the person must feel they can be trusted, an understanding of each other.
this is my experience from talking to alot of boys or the crowd I am with, however there could be different people so there are other reasons.
As for shallowness, both sex are, as I hang out with alot of people/ crowds and Girls do similar things like this aswell, its not sure if they know they do and that its sub-conscience though.
This is my experience from talking to alot of boys or the crowd I am with, however there could be different people so there are other reasons.
As for shallowness, both sex are, as I hang out with alot of people/ crowds and Girls do similar things like this aswell, its not sure if they know they do and that its sub-conscience though.
Women aren't attracted to men. They're attracted to vague ideas of masculinity and shadows of personality like, "Oh he's confident,", "Or he had the guts to ask me out!" but good character is just icing on the cake. It's akin to finding prostitutes or serial killers sexy just because they have more guts than some shy guy who isn't spineless but doesn't go around doing crazy shit. Really I find the thought of even fucking them sickening. A man is attracted to real personality and decency but any achievements she's made or a bold personality is just icing on the cake. Women are freaks and until they acknowledge their screwy tastes in men and manipulative game playing and signal sending when it comes to men's feelings, they won't get equal rights despite how much they want them.
Please, what's stopping you from approaching a guy? I've seen it a hundred times, girls do hit on guys and happened to me a couple times. If you like someone, do your thing. Stop waiting around. That's the same advice i would give to a guy asking the same questions. Yes, both genders play mind games and honestly, if the person i'm dating does that i just don't bother.
Hey, couldn't you have kept your rampant generalization in your own thread?
>>16
AARGH! Why do idiots always say 'here here'??? FUCKING SHIT! I CAN'T TAKE IT ANY LONGER! It's 'hear hear'!! DRILL THAT INTO YOUR BRAIN.
Ladder Theory knuckle-draggers: Stop feeling sorry for yourselves and whining all the time. Also, you're not a "nice guy". A nice guy doesn't lie about his intentions and pretend he's okay being friends to get close to girls.
Ouch. Not the end of the world, but way off topic >>17. Stick with the subject people!
I think both have it pretty rough. Neither can have it worse or better as it's more of a balance. The sexes are shallow towards each other and their outlooks. It's a vicious circle. One degrades the other, vice versa.
>>19
This.
Also, men are judged as much for physical appearance as women are.
I think that you should take the initiative regardless of what gender you are.
>>13
Me being another wang besides, it's amusing how many GIRLS I've heard who would actually subscribe to your "rampant generalizations", as someone put it.
>>23
Who made the move in your case? You or your bf?
XD
Few nice guys actually believe in using niceness as a strategy, they simply do it for its sake alone. That said, it becomes infuriating to see how genuine decency is apparently worth nothing when most women don't see that as attractive, not enough to show any interest in you on her own at least. No, no, you have to poke fun at her or generally replicate the bad boy to some extent, even if you are confident and have money.
Stop making assumptions before you make an ass out of yourself any further.
>>25 You are right that "nice" guys are not nice on purpose, and it's just a spontaneous behavior. The problem is that being nice alone is not enough. You still have to show masculinity, in order to raise sexual interest from a woman. And to display masculinity does not mean to be a jerk. It involves physically touching the woman, not be afraid of speaking about sex and love, and basically show that you are sexually inclined and not a "neutral" friend.
Once again, this does not mean to be a jerk, or imposing yourself on the lady. I hope the distinction is very clear....
And what else does masculinity contain in its paradigm? I hear about the line between being a nice guy and a jerk is that you still have to be challenging, you still have to poke fun at her, etc, in short you have to be challenging or have enough ballsiness without overstepping it, lest you risk being labeled as boring. Fuck that. FUCK THAT. I don't want a challenge and I don't want my woman to see me as someone challenging or that I'm interesting because I poke fun at her, that that's the main reason she's with me. Furthermore your definition of masculinity seems to imply that shy guys aren't masculine, that a guy being afraid to ask someone out or liking being chased themselves isn't manly and therefore they don't deserve a relationship.
> Furthermore your definition of masculinity seems to imply that shy guys aren't masculine, that a guy being afraid to ask someone out or liking being chased themselves isn't manly
Homosexual men are more masculine than a man that's intimidated by a women (and also more desirable to the opposite sex). It doesn't mean he's not a man or not masculine, just that the man that takes the lead is more masculine than he.
Same reason feminists aren't feminine. Most men don't want to be castrated. We want a submissive women who wears a dress, cooks the steak we've provided, spreads her legs, and make us feel like men.
Yeah, yeah. Fuck me. I'm a terrible human being for playing fast and loose with the horrible truth that we're all cruel animals.
> And what else does masculinity contain in its paradigm?
If it'll keep your feelings from being hurt, we can say masculinity is the presence of male genitalia or a Y chromosome. But then FtM transsexuals are offended, and maybe those of us with a micropenis.
You want to be a winner? Cross the finish line first. That participant ribbon is crap and we all know it.
>>29
It seems somebody here has been subjected to a lobotomy.
You truly astound me.
That is why I shall deconstruct your argument completely, line by line. Of course this is no great thing as you seem to be an idiot.
>Homosexual men are more masculine than a man that's intimidated by a women (and also more desirable to the opposite sex).
I am afraid you still have not defined what 'masculinity' is, and why it is desirable.
>It doesn't mean he's not a man or not masculine, just that the man that takes the lead is more masculine than he.
Again you fail to define what exactly it means to be masculine, etc., etc.
>Same reason feminists aren't feminine.
What is it to be feminine? Why can;t someone who holds feminist views be feminine? I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. In fact, this statement is completely ridiculous.
>Most men don't want to be castrated.
I'm afraid I don't see what this has to do with anything at all.
>We want a submissive women who wears a dress, cooks the steak we've provided, spreads her legs, and make us feel like men.
You seem to have substituted 'we' for 'I'. Why do activities that include wearing a dress, cooking steaks, spreading your legs (?), and making someone feel a certain way define a woman? I am afraid you seem to have completely lost your head in this little passage and you will have to be much more explicit in your meaning. So tell me why these things define a woman, and are desirable?
>Yeah, yeah. Fuck me.
My respect for you dropped even further, or rather it might have were that at all possible, which it wasn't after I read the first few lines of your dribble.
>I'm a terrible human being for playing fast and loose with the horrible truth that we're all cruel animals.
You have not at all validated a thing you have said. Why is what you say 'the truth' (strong words)? Would you care to validate your numerous and ridiculous claims? They must have a basis in reason and logic and you must show your reasoning. Who are you, for instance, to make claims about the general disposition of all men (cruel animals)?
>If it'll keep your feelings from being hurt, we can say masculinity is the presence of male genitalia or a Y chromosome.
So if masculinity is the presence of male genitalia and/or a Y chromosome, why are not all men masculine, and thus desirable, according to your reasoning? Unless that is not what you meant.
>But then FtM transsexuals are offended, and maybe those of us with a micropenis.
Again, irrelevant. Were you frequently visiting the academic help department in the university you attended, or perhaps you didn't qualify?
>You want to be a winner? Cross the finish line first. That participant ribbon is crap and we all know it.
What is this rot? Has eloquence of speech and general refinement been discounted? Is idiocy now the prime characteristic that is desirable?
Also, I am a male, you nitwit.
...Guys, I don't think any girl likes being poked fun at. Or something like that... could you help out with grammaire a bit?
Where would you get that idea from anyway?
To answer the original question -- yes, they should approach guys once in a while, it wouldn't fucking hurt.
Some of us happen to find that attractive in itself; a woman who isn't behaving like all the other sheep.
>>28 Ok, I think talking about sexuality was a bad idea, because the word is too loaded and everyone understands it differently. Basically what I meant is that the failure of the "nice" guy is that he behaves in a gender neutral, assexual way. And this is what prevents him from raising (sexual) interest, as is obvious. There is the confused belief that behaving in a sexually charged way means that you are a slut if you are a woman, and a jerk if you are a man. But it's not the same thing. Behave in a sexually charged way is a behavior that clearly shows interest for the opposite sex (in the case of hets): make eye contacts longer, touching the other person, talk about sex, etc.
If a "nice" guy avoids this behavior (because he is shy, or associates it with being a jerk, or whatever), then he has much less chances of eliciting interest from a woman. But behaving in this way is not being a jerk. Being a jerk is when you abuse the other person, which has nothing to do with what I just described.
>Furthermore your definition of masculinity seems to imply that shy guys aren't masculine, that a guy being afraid to ask someone out or liking being chased themselves isn't manly and therefore they don't deserve a relationship.
Shy guys (or girls) are always disadvantaged in the game of seduction, simply because they refuse to make the first step, and rely non-shy people to do the job. This automatically rules out shy-shy pairings, and puts them in a disadvantage in a competition with a non shy person. It's not that shy people do not deserve a relationship, but it's harder for them to get one, just like it's harder for people with other disadvantages (handicapped, severely sick, with mental problems). It has nothing to do with justice.
I'm not going to respond in any meaningful way to you when the majority of you post is nothing but a string of 'YOU ARE STUPID' and 'PROVE IT'. Try responding again, but without the exceedingly transparent and vainglorious intellectual tone.
>>34 Oh man, I meant masculinity, not sexuality in
> I think talking about masculinity was a bad idea, because the word is too loaded and everyone understands it differently.
>Shy guys (or girls) are always disadvantaged in the game of seduction, simply because they refuse to make the first step, and rely non-shy people to do the job. This automatically rules out shy-shy pairings, and puts them in a disadvantage in a competition with a non shy person. It's not that shy people do not deserve a relationship, but it's harder for them to get one, just like it's harder for people with other disadvantages (handicapped, severely sick, with mental problems). It has nothing to do with justice.
This is OP, I think this is the truth of the situation. If you are shy you are going to be passed by because our society promotes outgoing individuals. The ones that get promoted and noticed are the assholes and the hot chicks.
I really think that both sexes approach each other equally, just that guys do it differently then girls do. Girls will get dressed up to get attention and will send signals. If I was to approach a guy I would most likely flirt and see how he responds. A positive response would lead to either dancing or a conversation and dating could progress from there. A rejection would be either no response or a negative one.
A shy guy will not notice the approach, or if he does he could take it the wrong way and react negatively. Shy people get the short end of the stick, but especially shy guys. Since your average guy is more direct he will likely win over the attention of a shy girl. But a shy guy will totally miss the approach of an average girl.
I'm sure a bunch of you think "well, if girls are approaching us why don't they just be more direct?" Because being a girl who's direct means you're a slut, a whore. Guys will reject girls just because they are direct. A nice girl can seduce and enchant without a word.
>>38
Just what the fuck is a slut? A woman who has a lot of sex or enjoys sex?
Can you tell me why that is something to be ashamed of, or why it is necessarily a bad thing? Goodness gracious.
It's called the double standard.
Now, either stay in your ivory basement or stop being offended by human gender dynamics that have been around for longer than humanity itself and aren't going away anytime soon.
This bothers me to some extent. I can understand why women find masculinity attractive but again it seems like you're saying the guy needs to take initiative, that the woman can't find him attractive on her own while a guy certainly can find a woman attractive on his own, which is certainly a troublesome conclusion if I am to respect her or even care for her.
Even then I can play the initiative when needed but women will rarely if ever play the initiative themselves. How can I ever respect someone so clearly weak?
Have you ever actually encountered a guy repulsed by being forward or anything? Just curious, since this seems more like an appealing stereotype and not anything rooted in reality. I have encountered a few girls send indirect signals at me and quite frankly I've always been annoyed out of my skull, because it is just another game. I hate games. But directly asking me out has always been attractive to me.
>>40
Keep repeating that to make sure they do, or maybe just shut the fuck up and let the rest of us be. "Because it has always been like this" is not very convincing.
>women will rarely if ever play the initiative themselves. How can I ever respect someone so clearly weak?
>I hate games. But directly asking me out has always been attractive to me.
So you like when women take the initiative, but according to what you say previously shouldn't the woman taking the initiative find you weak-willed? Your opinions contradict themselves.
To start a relationship, someone will have to take the initiative. This does not mean that the other is weak-willed. The other may not even be that attracted, at first. In most cultures it is considered the duty of the man to have the initiative. I don't agree with it, and I also like when the woman takes the initiative, but this is a fact that explains why often women are reluctant to take the initiative (but not always, my partner was the one who took the initiative, and she's a woman). Please note that I don't consider taking the initiative to be masculine. I consider masculinity when a man displays sexual interest for a woman, touches her, speaks about sex with her. Taking the initiative does not hurt, but is not all of it. I don't consider women who take the initiative non feminine at all, and when they show sexual interest for the man they also become more attractive. In the end shy people lose, and hot people carry the day, regardless of gender. That's all there is to it.
Think of it this way: The only guys who would reject you based on your clothes, shoes, boob size, or hair are the superficial assholes you wouldn't want anyway.
>Have you ever actually encountered a guy repulsed by being forward or anything?
I can tell a rejection before the approach, generally. I still remember going out with friends one time to a show in San Francisco and I saw this guy that I thought was cute and I remember getting this glare or... well i can't explain it but I could tell he wasn't interested.
I do not get repulsed by being forward because I look for signals. If I get positive feedback I will follow up on it, and if I get negative feedback I will ignore the person and let them go. I don't expect guys to be forward either, and from what I see guys aren't forward. Guys don't just come up to me and ask me to dance. From my experience it's an exchange, I will give signals and look for reactions and that could lead to an interaction. While I don't see guys being forward, I will say that they are great at the followup of asking for a number or seeing about going out.
>>43
No what I mean is that across the global spectrum, a woman will rarely if ever make the move. Sure she might give off some half-assed hints but who in their right mind has the time for such intentional manipulation and deceitfulness? Look back in literature hundreds of years ago and you'll see women playing the same bullshit games. It seems as if women are genetically hardwired not to make their interests known, that it goes against everything in their grain to do so and that's why they don't, and what's more, if they don't, this is perfectly acceptable. For a guy? Oh no, if he doesn't make his interests known, then he's less of a man or he was a whiny douche bag who was just clinging to her, or was manipulative, etc. Never mind that guys have reasons to doubt themselves especially when they're consistently expected to go and get themselves burned without question!
Tell me, had you already been on good terms with your partner, that is to say, you approached her and started a good conversation with her before you started dating, or did she approach you out of the blue and propose the acquaintanceship? A woman will never approach someone who's shy either or who generally keeps to himself. No, she'll be far more attracted by the actions of someone who is as loud and arrogant as possible. Even though these personality types are abominable to begin with, why take a chance and talk to the guy minding his own business in the corner? No confidence clearly is key and anything that passes for confidence, ie arrogance, still is perfectly preferable to someone who keeps to himself right?
>>45
Please. Maybe if you stopped basing everything on "signals" and instead realized that sometimes people can misread each other or are too mature to have their mind wrapped so around signals in the first place, you'd learn something. Believe me when I say that guys are consistently expected to go out and grill their asses. For you to dismiss that as nothing or that they weren't preoccupied with your juvenile tendency towards signals gives good reason as to why guys complain about women.