Any of you lot care?
Raise your hands.
I care.
:(
aw shite, mate
I care too!
:(
Seconding that Shii should take over.
If Shii is up to it and doesn't let it rotten away like he did with shiichan and all the small portals that were available on shii.org
Let's not act rashly here, as we (fortunately) have until June to figure this out, right?
The way I see it, a new leader would have to do four jobs: put up money to keep the server running, work on the server to keep the software up to date and such, pick moderators, and make decisions about the future of the website (what boards are available, etc.). I'm most concerned about the last one, and I would consider it unfortunate if 4-ch didn't remain largely the same: a site for informal anonymous discussion on a variety of subjects, with a 2ch-style interface. Squeeks mentions that there are some problems facing 4-ch. Why don't we identify the aspects of the site that we think should be changed? My list:
I definitely don't want 4-ch to:
Well, those are just my thoughts on the matter. I'd support any "leader" who agrees with the above, provided he or she also is of good character and won't give up or lose interest or anything like that.
Oh, and another thing, I don't want a "leader" who is too hands-on. I like the way Squeeks just stays in the background and keeps stuff running, so the focus is on the users. The person who takes over should do the same.
>>8 has it, I do not want to run 4-ch.net alone. In fact, just today I was thinking of scrapping my own BBS. However, I think a coalition of moderators can do the job, as long as they are all very relaxed moderators who don't do dumb stuff like censoring racism and flames.
I'm not sure exactly how the server would be paid for.
Firstly, I wonder how much money is really needed to keep a site like 4-ch up and running. Speaking for myself, I wouldn't mind donating a few bucks a month, if it would help.
I just like to take this time and thank Squeeks for 4-ch and all the time and devotion it took to get it up and keep it running. I've enjoyed my time in DQN and the occasional posts in the other forums. Among the 2ch-type boards, it has been the most fun and enjoyable of them all.
Here's to hoping 4-ch lives on.
Here, I'll give you some more things to work with.
*Actually 28 days.
But if it's run from the ground up by the community, who has the root password to the server? Who has a contract with the company that hosts the site?
I'm not sure I understand, but anyway I'm skeptical about the whole "team" idea, as then the team becomes an internet community unto itself, and might tend to shift the focus away from the wider userbase and toward itself.
>>14
How heavy is it in terms of CPU usage? Dreamhost's shared hosting has a similar bandwidth allotment, the 60 min. of daily CPU time being the main limit, and is $10 per month or less if you get a special deal. Worth considering.
I really don't want 4-ch to die. :(
I think >>9 has the good idea. sage should be a checkbox, since barely anyone uses the link field for anything but getting better PR on Google. I admit to having done so before, but hey, the box is there...
I think that we all have a vision of 4-ch as the place where smart people come together and speak of things on the Web. If we collaborate on this project and live up to that vision, 4-ch could be the best site on the Internet.*
Board and moderator choices could be done by peers on the board and it could work out fabulously.
I'd like to thanks Squeeks for running the site for all this time and giving us a place to discuss and hang out at. If this doesn't work out, I think I'll become a Hikikomori that hangs out in an empty Bar Giko room. (I do invite DQN-ers to join me though!)
*I am not kidding.
>>16
Shared hosting is for personal sites only, IMO. It's unreliable in nature, and support tends not to take you seriously.
>>18, most of iichan/wakachan uses dreamhost shared hosting. Try again, lol.
so 4-ch uses ~~360GB transfer a month? Wowie. With captcha off, the CPU time can't be too horrible. Karaha doesn't use SQL, corrent?
Hell, at 360GB I'd love to take over 4-ch. Of course, more mods would be needed (more mods are almost ALWAYS needed, am I right?), but the task doesn't seem overwhelming.
I'd be willing to do whatever I can, I guess as a mod or something. Is that much moderation really needed? Spam and highly illegal/dangerous information are the only things I can think of worthy of deletion.
I don't know anything about programing, outside of basic HTML or whatever, but I check out the site each day so I'd be willing to moderate or something like that as long as I can keep a very low profile.
>Karaha doesn't use SQL, corrent?
correct!
For hosting, would the wabachan distributed model be feasible or desirable?
The only moderation I've really noticed is spam deletion and spamlist updates. If more mods are needed I'd be willing to step up. I thought the admins were more inclined to picking out people than take applicants.
I can also do housekeeping like upgrading to new versions of kareha.
>>19
I do not participate in iichan or wakachan, or any of their spawn, but the general vibe I get from them is that they are full of tripcodes and drama and run by self-interested IRC cliques. In case you hadn't noticed, 4-ch is very successful at remaining an anonymous BBS, where the emphasis is on the users, and admin/mod activity is rarely noticed because it only happens when it needs to. Based on your tone, I do not think that you would do a good job maintaining 4-ch this way. Therefore, please GTFO. Thanks.
> The only moderation I've really noticed is spam deletion and spamlist updates.
That's probably about right; I don't remember where exactly but I read somewhere that mods are like janitors, just cleaning up where necessary, but not really making any judgment calls. Of course some judgment is required to even do that... I check the site frequently, so I too would be willing to step up as a janitor if more are needed.
There are the rules, of course, but some of them are obviously guidelines and aren't really usually enforced (since there isn't much need to). http://4-ch.net/rules.html
I'm a little worried about the whole "team" idea, and would be apprehensive about the wakachan style of different people hosting different boards. I don't know, I could be paranoid, but I'm worried that it will end up creating a new community, of the people who run the site, and that these people will consider the actual users secondary. My ideal would be for some other quiet, clear-headed person to take over, and keep everything about the same as it is now (maybe rearrange the categories in the board list, though). Actually I totally agree with >>8, really.
i could put it on one of the primary iichan servers and promise not to let any of the drama/bullshit spill over
>>22 where did I say that I wanted things to change? Face it, it looks like 4-ch will need new hosting. I mearly offered my services to help with that. Jay said there might be new mods needed - I just echoed that. I wouldn't be here to be a moot. Cut off my internet if that were to ever happen.
Hey, I'm not some person coming in here to try and steal a community - community is what makes this site great. I post on DQN. I 1000GOT once. I contribute.
I think worrying about iichan running over into 4-ch is silly because it's all already linked in the sidebar. The cultures are alreay linked, to a point. That said, there are definately people who only visit 4-ch, and people who only visit iichan. And that's good. That should continue, no matter who takes over.
>>24
iichan people have made so many promises and brocken them(I used to go to iichan on a regular basis) so no, I don't trust that
Hmm... well, I wouldn't mind at least helping out with moderation, this being one of the few sites I still visit daily, multiple times, even.
As for the cost, if we could find at least 4 people willing to pay at least $20 a month, it wouldn't really be anything. Heck, I was paying about $85 for a server by myself a few months ago, so I wouldn't mind donating at least $20 a month.
I'm going to go post a thread in General asking for advice on getting a job. Then maybe I can help pay for this
$80 for 900GB of bandwidth? That ain't right in today's market.
I could easily host 4-ch for no cost, but I don't have much interest in adminning it.
>>27
i said iichan server, not iichan people.
also, could i borrow some names? some people will be leaving our staff soon
Well considering we are all anons here, it is kind of hard to figure out how serious people are with the hosting. The ones who are interesting in hosting the site should probably e-mail squeeks directly since there is no way for him to contact you.
Before I comment on people individually, I think a good suggestion is to have a meeting on IRC.
>>15 Wikipedia does this sort of idea. Group of people + majority influence from community decide what goes on, and the techs who look after it all are entrusted with access, root password etc.
>>19 Actually when I said less than 40%, I really mean quite less. Less than 50Gb/month. I was too asleep writing that to be bothered to get accurate figures, sorry.
>>30 Maybe it isnt to you, but remember this is not shared hosting like dreamhost offers. This is an allocated server, root access, etc. This is one of the cheapest plans out there for a dedicated server.
4-ch moderators : I know you lot don't really like anouncing your identities to the internet, but you do realise that everyone is going to find out sooner or later?
I think the team thing is a good idea, but if anyone has to be the "moot"/leader/guy that puts his name on the hosting bill I'd rather it be Shii or WAHa if they were up for it, mostly because they seem to do a good job of just working on things and staying mostly in the background as is.
Since the anonymous boards are pretty much the only places I contribute and I like this one best, I'm offering up my help. I'll more than likely have a steady income and extra money by June so you can put me down for that 20, or moderation or whatever else needs done.
Oh, and I -like- the link field, but I think I'm the only one.
I like the link field too.
>>33
BlackMage on rizon, zirc, gamesurge and WTFux
i am >>31 also, the ID in >>31 (ID:CTLOqyM+) has been added to the TXT record for iichan.net (viewable here: http://www.dnsstuff.com/tools/lookup.ch?name=iichan.net&type=TXT)
>$80 for 900GB of bandwidth? That ain't right in today's market.
If the host is a reliable one, that's okay.
Last server of mine was $85 for 2 TB... but I was just taking a gamble on it, since the people who the resellers were reselling it for didn't have the best reputation. Turned out to be a good deal though.
But if it's not even coming close the the bandwidth limit, bandwidth doesn't even matter, right?
Hey look Squeeks made a post while I was fiddling with my spelling.
I think there's a little difference between people knowing who you are in the Wikipedia and 4-ch sense, and everyone knowing who you are in the 4chan and every other forum on the internet sense. I'm kind of hoping that if I do end up a moderator I'll stick on the first side, and I don't really think it'll be that hard as long as I don't post with "34!TRIPCODELOLMODERATOR" all the time.
I would rather it be Shii because he is not tripcoding all over the place :( Well, what I mean to say is, he seems to have the best understanding of what makes these boards great. Not that I have anything against Waha.
Why would people have to find out who mods are? I guess I'd have to set up a fake internet identity or something to become one....
Also I like the link field... But a check box in addition would be nice, and give a way to hide your ID while still ageing.
Also use of an english word like "lower" in addition to "sage" as an option of a way to not bump the thread would be a lot easier on new visitors but still let those used to sage use it. Don't hate me for saying that, but really I think it would open the site up to people who aren't here from imageboard sites.
>>39
waha's trip is short, public (even posted in /soc/) and if you can't find it in google you can still brute-force it yourself under a second with one stupid for loop. So it really can't be considered as "unique" name like !wryytutut or simmilar ones.
As for the transfer, I just hope it will be transferred to someone who can guarantee that the site will remain as is. Without porn boards and without all the drama around tripfags.
I would also like to express my affection for the link field.
I'm raising my hand.
Hello I am a 4-ch moderator
I've been slacking lately
i like the link field. what i don't like is the way the link field is used to hide ID. sometimes you want to age while not displaying ID, or maybe sage with ID for some reason. so, i think the whole ID/non-ID thing should be a separate checkbox. but that's largely aside from the whole issue at hand, so yeah.
stop arguing about the link field already, it's very irrelevant
>>45 Look a' me! I'm ageing without an ID!
No name, no link, no ID. Just the comment and a box to sage.
>>47
That doesn't work on the Kareha 3.x boards (e.g. Love & Romance, Literature) though.
Hello 4-ch.
Why don't you join us at http://academy4.2ch.net/english/ ?
Currently the ENGLISH board is among the least active boards on 2 channel.
Let us revamp the board.
We need native English speakers badly.
I would even start a welcome thread for the 4-channellers there.
If we do have a meeting on IRC can we please have it on a network that allows Anonymouses? ZiRC doesn't. Freenode expressly does allow Tor and starting a #4-ch there might be a good idea.
I wouldn't want to discuss the matter non-anonymously, for many of the same reasons that I like 4-ch.
>>50
Stop whining about Tor. Nobody cares about Tor except for you. Pick a nickname and get on IRC.
>>49
Thanks for the link, I may go there. A single English board obviously can't replace 4-ch, though.
>>51
If you can suggest another way to connect to IRC at least semi-anonymously, I'm all ears. Tor just happens to be the only way I know how to do that. But what's so hard about just moving to a server that allows people to be anonymous?
>>52 connect to any network with a random name. use a different name every time. watch nobody care.
>>49
You are fighting the moderation team.
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▽書き込む前に「２ちゃんねるガイド」を読み、２ちゃんねるのルールを確認しましょう。
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・検索や過去ログを活用してね。 (list of threads)
It's a little bit scary that anonymity is getting trivialized and scoffed at here (>>51,53). Wasn't that the whole point of the site?
I agree to >>55. The site's focus is anonymous discussion, we should be able to discuss anonymously on an eventual IRC meeting as well.
I was going to bring this up first, but then I remembered that (like the link feild.) it's pretty irrelevant. This is mostly about what we're going to do when Squeeks leaves, not a 4-ch wishlist.
But since Happy Japanese put out the idea, how about YOU guys come HERE? I think it'd be nice if we were more accomodating to the Japanese members of our group. They obviously come to the japanese board, but I think it'd be pretty cool if we could get imput from them in the rest of the site.
Umm, I had a feeling that there would be more people in #4-ch to discuss solutions. I still think a meeting is a great idea to figure things out, the only thing that we really need to determine is WHEN we do it.
(I don't see what the big deal about IRC anonymity is, it's not like anyone knows who you are if you're anonymous all the time on 4-ch.)
> Anonymity counters vanity. On a forum where registration is required, or even where people give themselves names, a clique is developed of the elite users, and posts deal as much with who you are as what you are posting. On an anonymous forum, if you can't tell who posts what, logic will overrule vanity. As Hiroyuki, the administrator of 2ch, writes:
> If there is a user ID attached to a user, a discussion tends to become a criticizing game. On the other hand, under the anonymous system, even though your opinion/information is criticized, you don't know with whom to be upset. [...] Under a perfectly anonymous system, you can say, "it's boring," if it is actually boring. All information is treated equally; only an accurate argument will work.
(from http://wakaba.c3.cx/shii/shiichan; emphasis mine)
I'll be damned if that doesn't apply on IRC -- a hundred times as much. Think about this: 4-ch is a board for discussion. A productive IRC meeting involves discussion. Hence, my reason for wanting to be anonymous on IRC is exactly why I like 4-ch in the first place: I agree with Hiroyuki that discussion works better anonymously. Is this a hard idea?
Meh. I can't get behind this argument, because rather than being a bulletin board where a person can wander through, scrawl a response, then come back in a few weeks to look for response, real time conversations require some other means of maintaining continuity. There's no way in an online conversation to practically kopipe a point made a few days before. an identity on IRC allows people to remember to whom they were making a point. besides, if you really want to be anonymous, most irc networks will set you with a random Guest nick if your nickname duplicates one that is already registered.
>>60
maybe you should get on irc.2ch.net and talk about it
oh wait they don't allow anonymity there
lol
I realized I care, so I donated. I don't think I am involved enough to be a mod, but if a list of other ways regular users can contribute to keeping 4-ch alive is posted here, I and others would at least have more ways to help.
>>49
I agree with Shii, you will get more foreign people if the board was more english friendly. I read it occasionally, but I have no idea what the rules of the board are. Generally, I just wait for someone to spam the list of Chat in English, Hey Natives! Help us, etc and read those threads. However, this really isn't the place to discuss this. I would suggest bumping the thread in General http://4-ch.net/general/kareha.pl/1128588673 with a translation of the board rules, common threads topics, what to expect, what times (GMT) there is decent activity, etc.
Tor isn't the only socks proxy you can use you know, or hell buy a shell account... or use a CGI irc client.
On topic though, how some more statistics on actual viewship/how much is needed to run 4-ch would be useful. I think I've been able to grasp enough of Kareha and Wakaba that I can help with some of the changes that people want (banscript, etc). I'm not sure why anyone would object to iichan hosting it though, as long as it is its own thing and not taken over. Hell, if we really have 50,000 recurring viewers how hard can it be to get $100/month?
>>62
But nobody is forced to go to irc.2ch.net to discuss important things about the site.
If I had a throwaway dialup account I could use to connect to IRC, perhaps that would be anonymous enough and I'd do it. However, my IP address has been the same for almost 2 years and I host a website on it. And this is a stupid argument anyway, because there is an IRC network that allows anonymity, so we can just go there and these people who want to get credit for their thoughts still have the choice of doing that! I was waiting for someone who didn't want to be anonymous anyway to show up and register the channel, but never mind that, I'm now in #4-ch on irc.freenode.net. Please join me there.
11:20 <@Squeeks> okay, let me explain a bit more detail what I plan on happening:
11:21 <@Squeeks> (this means quiet for a moment while I type, then comment about it)
11:22 <@Squeeks> I personally wont have time/money to pay for hosting, come up with ideas, do code monkey things, etc. However, being the lazy fuck that I am, I still enjoy being "el presidente". My roll as admin is not up for grabs. My roll as host, billpayer, moderator, developer is up for grabs.
11:22 <@Squeeks> This benefits community, and me.
11:23 <@Squeeks> Benefits to the community mean that decisions of all nature are called by the community, in a somewhat more democratic fashion. currently, 4-ch lives under a dictatorship (aka me).
11:24 <@Squeeks> benefits to me is that websight still exists, but I have time to get on with my own damn life.
11:24 <@Squeeks> frankly, I was hoping a long time ago that the moderators/community would say "no, I want to run it, I could do it better", and go and actually do it better, because they would give more of a damn than me.
11:24 <@Squeeks> discuss.
From #4-ch, for all the people who weren't in there/people who are too cool for non-anonymous IRC.
This is the time to join #4-ch.
Nobody is saying they're "too cool" for non-anonymous IRC. I've explained thoroughly why I cannot use it.
This ridiculous hazing and exclusion of anonymous users is not helping 4-ch. Jay/Squeeks, you at least should know better.
>>69
You whining about it isn't helping either. Got any better ideas that would work?
>>70
Sorry. I assumed you had been reading this thread, but I suppose you don't have the kind of time to read through all of it.
My point was, I created a #4-ch on irc.freenode.net, where anonymous users are allowed.
offer for free hosting and root on iichan servers is still up. call blackmage on zirc.
>>71
Great, you can stay there and stop bothering us.
I don't know what to think about distributed hosting. If an imageboard goes down, you only lose the last few days, but if a forum server goes down, you lose everything that's ever been there.
I think that after squeek's dedicated server time runs out, we should just accept blackmage's offer to host it.
I mean, he is known in the community, and it will probably be in good hands. And he did say it would be kept seperate from iichan.
Athough, we could keep accepting donations and keep google ads up just in case it somehow goes wrong... in which case we would have a fund built up.
It's sort of like staying over at a friend's house for a while, for a trial basis, trying to get up money and look for a place of your own.
That said, I don't think hosting will really be a problem. If worse comes to worse, we could always just host each few boards seperately, and sort of turn it into the wakachan of anonymous messageboards... which probably won't be that bad. Just look at wakachan.
>>73
Because it is hard to set up replication in mysql? Or rsync.. or just someone cron + wget/mirror
As for mods: They will proabbly have to consist of known "tripfags."
Why?
Because, who would elect someone that they knew nothing about as a mod? You know the "tripfags" and what to think/expect of them, and they have a reputation to protect. Wherein anonymous people are just... anonymous. Ya see what I'm sayin?
The only way anonymous could really help out is by reporting stuff... or perhaps by voting on issues, and if it gets a certain number of votes it will be pulled out... but there's no way that anonymous could do the actual moderation (although known people being anonymous can!) without adding additional software features, like adding the ability for a thread to be automatically deleted after so many posts, or adding the ability to revert thread to a previous state (a la wikipedia) so that there could be actual anonymous moderators.
>>76 gb2/phpbb
Obviously the moderators' identities should be known to the other mods and/or admins, but that is no excuse for selecting people who are necessarily ignorant of the way the boards work.
You don't elect people for anonymous boards, you just appoint them. We're here because Squeeks has shown a willingness to be hands off, and can find people who think the same.
>Obviously the moderators' identities should be known to the other mods and/or admins
That's what I meant.
>but that is no excuse for selecting people who are necessarily ignorant of the way the boards work.
Agreed. I didn't say it was.
I also agree that Shii would be okay as one of the people "doing this."
Shii has no interest in paying for the site, why are so many appointing him/her? And with no argument eather to why.
I don't trust Shii to "do this".
>>82
I don't think you quite understand the point of a "team" do you? Just because Shii might oversee operations here, etc. doesn't mean he has to be the one that pays the bills, nor should the person in charge of hosting be expected to deal with day-to-day moderation issues.
Oh, and to the IRC hater, you've made your point well known here at 4-ch. Guess what? You're still wrong.
>>79
I would have agreed with you until I saw Shii's anti-anonymous bullshit (most recently in >>73). Anyone with that kind of attitude needs to get back to phpBB, and stay the hell away from those of us who actually value discussion (as opposed to namecalling and vanity).
>>83
I don't see anyone in this thread claiming to hate IRC. Being forced to publicly reveal one's identity to discuss the future of an anonymous BBS, yes, I do see complaints about that.
But namecalling is a tradition in anonymous BBS ヽ(´ー`)ノ
Unless you have a thick skin and a sense of humor to brush it off, you are not going to have much fun on this kind of site.
The team idea is a good one, I guess if Squeeks wants to remain the head, that's fine. But I think that moderators shouldn't be able to see IPs, only one person should be able to, in this case, Squeeks.
When squeeks and I were discussing the (still non-existing) ban script I was supposed to code, I remember that he told me IPs were going to be hidden from everyone except squeeks.
You can be certain that they won't be visible to all mods.
>>84
Hook up your internet to an anonymous public proxy.(there's lots) Connect to IRC and pick a random name. Use a new proxy and name every time you attend an IRC meeting. Problem solved. ヽ(´ー`)ノ
Why is everyone, even shii and squeeks, so hostile to the idea of moving the IRC to a place that allows anonymous posting?
some people seem to be taking anonymity a little too seriously.
it's not an all or nothing deal, anonymity has varying levels
-------------- the line where most people stop caring about who you are because it is painfully easy to change identities --------------
>>88
Because we know Anonymous is the keeper of the magic proxy, so why doesn't he use it?
>>91
I'm not saying its that hard to be psuedononymous, but there seems to be open hostility to anonymous IRC.
It's not so much hostility as pragmatism for practicality's sake. The hostility is at the person or persons who can't lay off already when the concensus runs against them.
>>94
I don't know much about IRC, is it really that impractical to use another channel?
Wow guys, glad to see we are making progre--
Oh, that's right, we aren't making any progress because talking about the anonymity of IRC is a lot more important than keeping this website around. >:(
We have 6 months right? I'll do it later. This is DRAMA TIME!
>>76
There are certainly ways for anonymous to moderation the boards, or just moderate the moderators. An obvious example would be having someone anonymously moderating and when they delete the post, anyone can read the post and then abstain/agree/disagree with its deletion. If enough people disagree on enough occasions, demod him. You could even do away with the idea of a moderator class entirely and have only admins to delete egergious things (e.g. cracky's address, links to child porn, whatever).
Frankly, I'm not sure why people are in such a huss about moderators seeing someone ip anyways. One could easily link to a site with a webbug and then decern from post times within a decent reliability which goes with which post. If you are worried about someone linking multiple posts together, well they can do that as well even if they ips are enciphered. (It isn't exactly useful for moderators to be able to see an enciphered IP if they cannot use it to gleen more information.)
>There are certainly ways for anonymous to moderation the boards, or just moderate the moderators. An obvious example would be having someone anonymously moderating and when they delete the post, anyone can read the post and then abstain/agree/disagree with its deletion.
Did you actually read all of my post, of just read some of it, get angry, and reply to that? I said:
>without adding additional software features, like adding the ability for a thread to be automatically deleted after so many posts, or adding the ability to revert thread to a previous state (a la wikipedia) so that there could be actual anonymous moderators.
Since I'm pretty sure Kareha doesen't have that "agree/disagree with its deletion" feature yet, that would be adding additional software features. You see, I myself gave some examples of how it could work.
Of course, having never actually messed around with Kareha, it might actually have that feature, in which case I apologise.
PS: 100get.