A Literal Dream Girl (85)

1 Name: Daydreamer : 2008-02-19 09:24 ID:xEY9oyIf

(I know it's a long read, but feel free to skip the whole thing and only read the two-sentence tl;dr summary. It sums it up quite well.)

Hello, /love/.
I'm new to this place, but from what I've read here, I have the impression that you people are kind and understanding and give good advice. There's something I've been wanting to get off my chest for quite some time now, and I think this might be the right place to talk about it. Will you listen to my story?

I'm a twenty year old guy, and my romantic situation is quite simple. I, undoubtedly like many of you, do not have a lover and have never had one, and I, probably like some of you, do not think I will or should ever get into a romantic relationship.
Being a high functioning autistic, I have enough trouble even understanding casual friends and acquaintances, let alone a lover. I don't think any romantic relationship of mine would have a bright future. On top of that, I'm incredibly shy.

But that's not my problem. In fact, possibly unlike any of you, I'm fine with being alone. Or so I think, at least.
The complicated part is the solution that I have found to counter that dreaded feeling of loneliness. This is also the reason why I won't talk to people about this, save anonymously to people who have probably seen weirder things, because I'm afraid they'll consider me crazy for it.

I've always been a daydreamer. Eventually I started daydreaming about what it would be like to have a girlfriend. What she would be like, the romantic adventures that we would have together, the things we would talk about, the many ways we would find to express how much we love each other. This daydream is now so intricate and consistent that I now basically have an imaginary lover.
But unlike all those "I fill a rubber glove with warm water and hold it to pretend I'm holding hands with a girl ;_;" sob stories, I'm actually happy with this situation. I really am. It's an outlet for those feelings of affection and for that craving to be with someone I love, feelings that would probably never be fulfilled in the real world. In dreams I have found a way to turn desire into satisfaction, without fulfilling it in the real world.
On the other hand, I can't help having the feeling that this is wrong. Not that that thought would ever occur to me, because I'm content about my status quo. But when anyone else talks about stuff like this, they say it like it's the epitome of roneriness and anyone who would do such a thing must be really sad and pitiful. Not to mention that they are a nerd, pathetic, a failure at life, a disgrace to mankind, et cetera.
I'm not delusional or escapist. I'm quite aware that she isn't real, and I don't disregard my real life for this dream, except perhaps its romantic aspects. I also only ever meet her in daydreams, rather than talking to an empty chair or drinking a glass of lemonade with the other straw pressed to the face on the screen. But I still have an imaginary girlfriend.

What do you think? Is it wrong to resort to dreams where the real world leaves holes?
More specifically, should I stop doing this?

tl;dr: I'm an adult with an imaginary girlfriend. Is this pathetic and/or wrong? (Y/N)

36 Name: Daydreamer : 2008-02-21 13:51 ID:xEY9oyIf

>>34

>I'm concerned because if you allow yourself to continue down this path, you may be sabotaging the chance that you do have to find a real girlfriend - as unlikely as that may seem now.
>It's really not the "so ronery" part of it that may hurt you later, it's that you may be unconsciously creating unrealistic expectations of relationships and how they should work. If there's a sudden change and you find yourself in a position where you could have a romantic relationship with someone, this may end up damaging that.

Indeed. You address the main insecurities I had about this. I half expected more people to reply along these lines.

I am concerned that imaginary relationships like this would give me a wrong idea of what real relationships are like, and I agree that I probably shouldn't rule out the possibility of finding love in real life. Even if, like I said, that would be very difficult for me.
Well, I'll take that as all the more reason to carefully distinguish fiction from reality, and not to take my dreams as seriously as I usually do. (But without discarding them altogether.)

>Now: if you indeed have an imaginary girlfriend, you are obviously not fine with being alone, despite what you say.

Depends of what you mean by being alone. What I meant was that I'm fine with the solution I found; being alone with my Dream Girl.
I'm not sure whether or not that's completely true either, though. I think so, but like I said, I can't help thinking it's wrong.

>This may seem difficult (especially in your situation), but I strongly recommend talking to a counselor/therapist/whatever about this in the same way you did here. They won't judge your situation, and they'll give much better advice here than we can in this situation.

Dang. Do I really have to? Frankly I kind of had the impression you people are good enough advisors to help me sort this out.
It's so much easier talking about these things on the Internet, even if you're occasionally going to get some dirt hurled at you from trolls passing by. You can write it down instead of having to say it aloud. You can take all the time you need to think about everything you want to say, and to find the right words. And it's much easier to keep these things a secret from the people around you that way.

>>35

>lol I started this, I just had to know. Actually I was expecting sum lulz but I didn't get any. Your dreamgirl is quite awright. Sure with the spacecraft and everything, but whatever. I have a lively imagination, I write fantasy and all that shit. I can understand where you're coming from.

Thank you. :)

>I just think tho, that you shouldn't give up your hopes on finding someone. This world is full of wierdos. If I can understand and relate to you, there's got to be women out there who can too. You're still just 20, right?

I suppose you're right.

37 Name: Secret Admirer : 2008-02-21 18:09 ID:yes09ME8

My original post was made without reading the entire thread - seems all right in context, but I have to comment on one thing:

>>18

Not going to quote the whole thing, but:

>friendlily encourage me to get away from the computer and see the world I'm missing out on. To "travel the roads of life", as she puts it. I think she's right, I should.

sorta stood out at me. Perhaps a lot of this is rooted in a desire to change but you feel you need to invent a personality in order to propel you toward that change. As children our guiding influence is typically our parents, and as adults we'd like to believe that a partner can open our eyes, so to speak, much more than anyone else could. Isn't my call to make, not a psychiatrist or therapist and I know very little about you or your situation, but it does seem like you want to become a more outward person but you feel you need someone to give you a push. Then again, could just be absent-minded crystal balling on my part.

>Well, I'll take that as all the more reason to carefully distinguish fiction from reality, and not to take my dreams as seriously as I usually do. (But without discarding them altogether.)

That's the right way to do it. You don't have to abandon your imagination - it's just unhealthy to create a surrogate. We all have fantasies, but if we take them too far, we often end up hurting our chances to make them reality.

>Frankly I kind of had the impression you people are good enough advisors to help me sort this out.

Not really. You owe it to yourself to at least get a third opinion on this from a professional (read: someone who knows what they're talking about). You're doubting whether the way things are working out is really the way it should be, which is good (willing to make any major change is good, period), but we can't really say objectively one way or the other here.

It's not really the typical "girl said X, should I say Y" kind of question. A therapist may even be able to help you with your problems in understanding others. I'm hesitant to say "oh gee you should go out and get a real girlfriend!! lol!!" because that would be irresponsible, but this should be a wake up call that the status quo may make you happy but it may not necessarily be healthy.

Finally, if you do take the suggestion and you're nervous about it not being the intertubes, just write up what you're going to say somehow! Nobody would even care if you strolled in and had written down everything you wanted to ask about verbatim right from that paper. In honesty, you are keeping it much less of a secret by posting it on the Internet than seeing a therapist or what have you, because nothing you say will ever leave that room.

Whatever you choose to do, it's a good thing that you are at least willing to question your current situation and make changes. Too many people would prefer to not acknowledge their doubts - it's the whole "if I pretend it's not there, it's not there" fallacy.

Hope this didn't sound too condescending, but it's my belief that when it comes to the mind, very little is without cause. Perhaps this is a wake-up call to, as you noted, travel the roads of life. If "Vanessa" can motivate you, you can motivate you. Good luck.

38 Name: Daydreamer : 2008-02-21 20:36 ID:xEY9oyIf

>>37
Oh, no, you're not sounding condescending at all. I'm glad and grateful that you're willing to tell me about all of this.
I'll think about what you said.

>sorta stood out at me. Perhaps a lot of this is rooted in a desire to change but you feel you need to invent a personality in order to propel you toward that change. As children our guiding influence is typically our parents, and as adults we'd like to believe that a partner can open our eyes, so to speak, much more than anyone else could. Isn't my call to make, not a psychiatrist or therapist and I know very little about you or your situation, but it does seem like you want to become a more outward person but you feel you need someone to give you a push. Then again, could just be absent-minded crystal balling on my part.

You seem to interpret Vanessa as a product of my subconscious feelings. Well, maybe she is in part. But it was in fact a rather rational decision of mine to let her encourage me to do this and more things that I think would be the right thing to do, but that I expect I would need some encouragement to pull off. Be it real or imaginary encouragement. That doesn't seem to make all that much difference to me.
I also have a feeling that in general I might be more aware of emotions that other people would only feel subconsciously.

Maybe it would be helpful if I'd give a little more background information about myself in that regard.
It seems to me that I have a rational and an emotional part of my mind, and that those two halves often don't really listen to each other.
I could rationally know that something is or is not true, but I often need to repeat such facts to myself until they sink in and my emotional self gets the message too. Contrariwise, my rational self (in other words, me) often doesn't listen to my emotions, for the simple reason that a good part of the time they supply the worst and most patently nonsensical ideas ever. When they do that I sometimes rationally decide to adjust my emotions by means of daydreams, to "fool" them into believing the truth.
For example, my emotions defy reason when I'm shitting bricks to creepypasta or other horror fiction that I know perfectly well is not real, as I'm sure anyone does at times. But when that happens and I'm paranoid from it afterwards, I can counter the ludicrous dangers I imagine by imagining something else that will defeat them. Surely imaginary guardians can protect you from imaginary threats. That way I will feel safe again, while I was actually never in danger. And all the while I'm still rationally aware of that truth.
So I think I'm rather talented as well as experienced at doublethinking, to use Orwell's terminology again. I can have rational beliefs and emotional beliefs in blatant contradiction to one another, and still accept both of them in some way.

I don't know how common all of that is; maybe everybody does it, maybe I'm the only one. And of course I'm no psychologist either, so I might as well be dead wrong about it all.

By the way, I notice we're straying into "personal issues" territory. Is that a problem?

39 Name: SpireAtlanta!SGRPrwhmGE!!DwFbhmLv : 2008-02-23 04:00 ID:eLxOiKkB

Daydreamer, this is a /love/ issue, as far as I see it, rather than a /personal/

Your comments about having a rational and emotive part aren't so much what seems different about you, it's your thinking of things as separate entities that is unusual. Your ability to distance yourself from your own thoughts is something I haven't encountered before. It could potentially make you a good writer.

About "Vanessa", I do think that you're relying on "her" as your Mode of reality, rather than a part of your reality. In other words, I do believe that you recognize her as not real/illusory, but have so long been int eh position of thinking about her/utilizing her as a tool that you're afraid, uncertain, or both of leaving "her" behind because the idea of experiencing life with her has been your routine.

As a psych student, I have to say that this is not a healthy thing. While there may be benefits to dreaming of communication and having "her" push you to doing things you believe that you should, they're not likely to be any better than simply rehearsing potential conversations with others and pushing yourself. I think that this imaginary projection adds a negative, though, which is the ease of the situation. This isn't to say that you'll always be afraid to approach others because you think of an imaginary friend, but that you've become comfortable with a certain way of communicating and thinking about social interaction. Real life interactions may be, and likely are, more complex, and it may be easy to wish to simply push them aside and stick with your false reality.

40 Name: SpireAtlanta!SGRPrwhmGE!!DwFbhmLv : 2008-02-23 04:00 ID:eLxOiKkB

>>39 continued

I believe that the longer you wait to engage with others in real life, the more socially awkward you will feel, the less confident in communication, and thus the less likely to become engaged in society later on. I use the word society for a reason, as well: This isn't just about girlfriends and acquaintances, this is about people you will meet at work, etc. It will have a greater effect on your life than you may be imagining right now.

Finally, I, too, had a few "dream girls" of sorts. I did not flesh them out at all compared to what you have, and they generally changed and passed as I grew up and my interests changed. I tossed out the idea altogether when I realized that it wasn't truly benefiting me. It was a false sense of comfort, a security blanket that I ran to in order to feel better and more relaxed, but I wasn't changing anything in the process that would enable me to avoid the issues I used the security blanket to recover/hide from.

Not only is this true, but you should also consider the fact that even if things do not feel as comfortable in real life as they do in your fantasy (at least not right away), there is Great value in actually interacting. Meeting and knowing People is much more fulfilling and Interesting than being confined to your own mind, your own knowledge and experience. Is it any wonder that the acknowledged writers of history have largely been those who interacted with others at the most respected levels of soceity? Those who lives were interesting and vibrant in themselves?

Even those who seem to be on top of the world have their problems. No one is perfect, and this is one of the Values of engaging with flawed people. There is more to learn from and a larger breadth of emotion to experience. There are some people who may not be worth interacting with, and even most may be unpleasant, but even by knowing these people you can become more secure in yourself, with who you are. The variety of experience is valuable.

Finally, if you go through your life and have bad experiences with people year after year that are not bad of your own fault, then you can be content in knowing that you Are a good person, and that you will know if you ever do meet another good person. Should that day come (And I think there's a decent possibility of it happening far sooner than you'd think), you'll be able to appreciate humanity for what it is, and experience how much better it is than your imagination, no matter how you use it.

And that's what's really important, and that's why it's worth it. Experience nearly always, if not always, beats imagination. You have to give one up in order to experience the other fully.

41 Name: Daydreamer : 2008-02-23 15:50 ID:xEY9oyIf

>>39
>>40
First of all, thank you so much for reacting. You seem to know what you're talking about, and I'm happy to hear your opinions on the matter. But I think I need to clarify some things.

Point by point:

>Daydreamer, this is a /love/ issue, as far as I see it, rather than a /personal/

That's good.

>Your comments about having a rational and emotive part aren't so much what seems different about you, it's your thinking of things as separate entities that is unusual. Your ability to distance yourself from your own thoughts is something I haven't encountered before. It could potentially make you a good writer.

I see. That's interesting.

>About "Vanessa", I do think that you're relying on "her" as your Mode of reality, rather than a part of your reality. In other words, I do believe that you recognize her as not real/illusory, but have so long been int eh position of thinking about her/utilizing her as a tool that you're afraid, uncertain, or both of leaving "her" behind because the idea of experiencing life with her has been your routine.

This once was true, but I don't think it's the case at present.
I have had one other imaginary lover before, that I had the kind of trouble letting go of that you describe. After breaking up with her, I've been "single" for a few months without any trouble, until I started feeling ronery again and decided to think up Vanessa, less than a year ago now.
For that first girl, I was incredibly dogmatic about absolutely never leaving her. I felt like a traitor to her to even think about the faintest possibility. I kept this going for four years or so.
My present imaginary relationship is much more casual. The existence of this thread should illustrate that; if I'd had more reactions saying "no, it's unhealthy, you should end it now", I don't think I'd have had trouble doing so. The only problem I'd probably have with it would be that in time I would start feeling lonely again.

>As a psych student, I have to say that this is not a healthy thing. While there may be benefits to dreaming of communication and having "her" push you to doing things you believe that you should, they're not likely to be any better than simply rehearsing potential conversations with others and pushing yourself. I think that this imaginary projection adds a negative, though, which is the ease of the situation. This isn't to say that you'll always be afraid to approach others because you think of an imaginary friend, but that you've become comfortable with a certain way of communicating and thinking about social interaction. Real life interactions may be, and likely are, more complex, and it may be easy to wish to simply push them aside and stick with your false reality.

A good point, albeit mentioned before. The way things go in daydreams and in the real world are rather different, and I shouldn't confuse reality and fiction.
But do you think it would suffice to just keep this in mind and see to it that I don't lose my grip on reality, or should I stop having imaginary friends altogether?

[To be continued...]

42 Name: Daydreamer : 2008-02-23 15:51 ID:xEY9oyIf

Continued from >>41:

>I believe that the longer you wait to engage with others in real life, the more socially awkward you will feel, the less confident in communication, and thus the less likely to become engaged in society later on. I use the word society for a reason, as well: This isn't just about girlfriends and acquaintances, this is about people you will meet at work, etc. It will have a greater effect on your life than you may be imagining right now.

Actually, as for non-romantic relationships, I do interact with people in the real world all the time, as probably everyone does. I also do have a number of (real) friends whose company is important to me. And in general I almost exclusively get along with people finely, even if talking to people sometimes makes me feel timid and uneasy. I certainly don't think of real people the way I think of imaginary people, nor do I prefer imaginary friends to real ones.
I think the most salient differences between how I interact with people in real life and in daydreams, are the same differences as those between how I interact with people in real life and on the Internet. I'm more confident, and I can take the time I need to think about what I want to say before I say it. I think that's who I really am, the person I am when I'm not constrained by anxiety and when I have no trouble saying what I mean.

On the topic of anxiety in social interaction, maybe I should explain that too, if this post isn't too long already.
I often feel nervous when talking to people because I'm afraid they might misinterpret my body language. I don't want to give them any wrong impressions.
This is where my disorder comes in again. As a high functioning autistic, my social skills are innately handicapped. I believe that in the course of my life, I've managed to learn and reconstruct a good part of the social understanding and body language proficiency that everyone else already seemed to have by default, but still I have at times had problems with people who assumed I would understand cues that I was never even aware of.
One particular time in grade school, someone whom I considered a friend shouted at me for making fun of him all the time, without me have the slightest idea that I had been consistently hurting his feelings. Apparently at that moment I decided I would do anything to never make such a thing happen again. Now I am careful - to the point of paranoia - not to offend people and to nip any potential misunderstanding in the bud if I can.
This goes for acquaintances I met a minute ago as well as old friends I've known for years, or even my own parents.

>Finally, I, too, had a few "dream girls" of sorts. I did not flesh them out at all compared to what you have, and they generally changed and passed as I grew up and my interests changed.

That's how it was for my first tries, too. :)
In fact, Vanessa isn't the exact same person as she was when I first thought her up, either. But instead of changing her personality, I think of it as exploring it.

>I tossed out the idea altogether when I realized that it wasn't truly benefiting me. It was a false sense of comfort, a security blanket that I ran to in order to feel better and more relaxed, but I wasn't changing anything in the process that would enable me to avoid the issues I used the security blanket to recover/hide from.

Really? It's different to me, though. I do think I benefit from this in some ways. For example, it helps me to sort out my thoughts if I try to explain them to an imaginary listener. And sometimes I just need someone to comfort me, even if that doesn't change anything besides my state of mind. (I refer again to having read too much creepypasta.)

43 Name: Daydreamer : 2008-02-23 15:52 ID:xEY9oyIf

Continued from >>42 (proof that this post is way too long):

>Not only is this true, but you should also consider the fact that even if things do not feel as comfortable in real life as they do in your fantasy (at least not right away), there is Great value in actually interacting. Meeting and knowing People is much more fulfilling and Interesting than being confined to your own mind, your own knowledge and experience. Is it any wonder that the acknowledged writers of history have largely been those who interacted with others at the most respected levels of soceity? Those who lives were interesting and vibrant in themselves?

I actually agree wholeheartedly. Getting to know people can be fun, and beneficial. Even if the actual interaction can be difficult to me.
I think the only thing that ever keeps me from interacting with other people is timidity. Sometimes I really want to socialize, but have trouble finding the courage to break the ice. But still, a good part of the time it goes finely.
I should admit that I don't really actively look for opportunities to get to know people. I never visit clubs or bars and such. I guess I only meet people in college, and sometimes at birthday parties and the like. On the other hand, I don't think building extensive social networks is really my cup of tea, and I don't think there's any sense in trying to adopt a life style that doesn't suit me.

Tl;dr: I'm not a complete recluse. I often have trouble talking to people, for fear of being misinterpreted, but I try my best to do it anyway.
I know dreams are no substitute for reality. At the start of this topic, love was an exception to that, but I now agree it's best to only consider it a place holder, and not to take it too seriously.

44 Name: Daydreamer 2 : 2008-02-23 16:05 ID:MAmjZ7F5

>>1
I have the same problem as you do, though I think I fall into the escapist category. I daydream about having a girlfriend or just a friend but this is whilst in bed (while I'm awake and not sleeping) I do this quite a lot to the point I'd spend two hours day dreaming instead of going to sleep. Though I'm not delusional and I know she doesn't exist, which is kind of depressing.

And I hate to say this I do think it's rather pathetic, anyway I apologise for raiding your thread. I would just to like to let you know that there's somebody else who's having the same problem.

45 Name: Daydreamer : 2008-02-23 17:43 ID:xEY9oyIf

>>44
You really don't need to apologize for posting something very relevant to the topic of the thread.

If you're depressed about it, I think that means you somehow feel you shouldn't do this. You seem to confront yourself with your loneliness instead of enjoying your nightly daydreams.
I think you should ask yourself this question, even if it's painful: do you think you could find love in real life? If the answer is really a definite no, it's unfortunate, but there's no point in feeling bad about it time and time again. You should just accept it and find other ways to live a happy life. Surely there are plenty.
And otherwise, that's all the more reason to be optimistic, isn't it? :) If the answer is "yes", or even "maybe", the solution is simple and obvious, even if it might take much courage: give it a try and see how things work out.

Of course, I'm just as much of a virgin as you, if not more so, so I'm not talking from experience. I'm just an arm chair philosopher giving his esoteric views. So by all means, decide for yourself if my advice is bunk.

46 Name: SpireAtlanta!SGRPrwhmGE!!DwFbhmLv : 2008-02-25 04:17 ID:eLxOiKkB

>>43 I'm glad that you benefited from my postings. I'm also glad to hear that you aren't a recluse, and think that I understand you a bit better now.

Perhaps it's a good method of dealing with life and your handicap to continue speaking to "dream people". I can see that as viable, so long as you continue to realize that it's only a placeholder for a potential relationship. I still caution you, however, to not get so comfortable with imaginary personalities that you decide to forsake opportunities in life.

This isn't to say that I'm blaming your lack of networking and social functioning on your dreams. I am quite certain that that is not the case. My point is simply that networking is a needed thing in the world. You may not feel now that it is something required, but it has a huge impact on finding jobs, salary pay, chances at meeting others, etc.

I also worry about you using imaginary people as a source for venting too much, tot he point that it has a negative effect on you. Perhaps you have the skill and sense of mind to not get lost in those kinds of troubles.

If this is so, then I don't see the harm in continuing to have these conversations. While I no longer project an image of a person, I do often have "internal conversations" of sorts where I flesh out my ideas and responses tot hings, though I don't consider another voice talking to me. Perhaps that is my own issue, though; a fear of criticism from others or the like, if not a desire to not truly see the potential depths of my own flaws.

The other thing I would caution you about with Vanessa or other imaginaries is that you shouldn't become preoccupied with them, spending too much time conversing with them and neglecting other things, or honing your skills and thoughts to fit a particular personality. (It's good that you mentioned your flexibility in creating and altering them.)

Finally, I'd advise that you see a psychologist/behavior therapist to help you with the issues of your autism, how to cope and communicate your issues to others, etc. Also, do let others know that you have this disadvantage and what it means in the context of your talking to them.

Clearly imaginary persons have been a way of adapting that has helped you, and you're a bright, kind, and mindful person to deal with the subject and others as you have. Good luck. :D

47 Name: Daydreamer : 2008-02-25 22:16 ID:xEY9oyIf

>Perhaps it's a good method of dealing with life and your handicap to continue speaking to "dream people". I can see that as viable, so long as you continue to realize that it's only a placeholder for a potential relationship. I still caution you, however, to not get so comfortable with imaginary personalities that you decide to forsake opportunities in life.

Yes. I'll see to that.

>This isn't to say that I'm blaming your lack of networking and social functioning on your dreams. I am quite certain that that is not the case. My point is simply that networking is a needed thing in the world. You may not feel now that it is something required, but it has a huge impact on finding jobs, salary pay, chances at meeting others, etc.

I understand.
For the past few years I've already been trying my best to learn to open up to people more, and to be more spontaneous. I suppose what you mention is all the more reason to continue that effort.

>I also worry about you using imaginary people as a source for venting too much, tot he point that it has a negative effect on you. Perhaps you have the skill and sense of mind to not get lost in those kinds of troubles.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. What kind of negative effect would it have on me? What kinds of troubles could I get lost in?
Is it that it could warp my sense of reality, or another danger?

>While I no longer project an image of a person, I do often have "internal conversations" of sorts where I flesh out my ideas and responses tot hings, though I don't consider another voice talking to me. Perhaps that is my own issue, though; a fear of criticism from others or the like, if not a desire to not truly see the potential depths of my own flaws.

Actually that's what I usually do too. I silently explain them to nobody in particular, without anyone talking back.
Now that you mention this, I suppose that means I shouldn't have called it "explaining it to an imaginary listener".

>The other thing I would caution you about with Vanessa or other imaginaries is that you shouldn't become preoccupied with them, spending too much time conversing with them and neglecting other things, or honing your skills and thoughts to fit a particular personality. (It's good that you mentioned your flexibility in creating and altering them.)

Excuse me again, but what exactly do you mean by "honing my skills and thoughts to fit a particular personality"? To fit a personality of mine, or one of my imaginations?

>Finally, I'd advise that you see a psychologist/behavior therapist to help you with the issues of your autism, how to cope and communicate your issues to others, etc. Also, do let others know that you have this disadvantage and what it means in the context of your talking to them.

If you mean I should try to find out what could be the repercussions of this disorder, I don't think there is any need for that. I'm no stranger to autism.
My parents knew about my disorder since I was about five years old or so. I've pretty much always had professional guidance because of it, mostly concerning school. I've also been visiting a web community for autistic people for the past few years. (I suppose I should talk to them about my personal problems related to autism; they'd have more experience with those than you guys.)
I also do try to let as many relevant people know about my disorder as I can find the opportunity and courage to tell.

I'm sorry for shooting down so many of the things you tell me. I'm still glad you're advising me. I certainly don't take offence at you telling me things I know, and I understand that there's no way for you to foresee what I do and do not know.

>Clearly imaginary persons have been a way of adapting that has helped you, and you're a bright, kind, and mindful person to deal with the subject and others as you have. Good luck. :D

Thank you. :)

48 Name: SpireAtlanta!SGRPrwhmGE!!DwFbhmLv : 2008-02-27 03:07 ID:eLxOiKkB

*>I also worry about you using imaginary people as a source for venting too much, tot he point that it has a negative effect on you. Perhaps you have the skill and sense of mind to not get lost in those kinds of troubles.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. What kind of negative effect would it have on me? What kinds of troubles could I get lost in?
Is it that it could warp my sense of reality, or another danger? *

I mean that venting can lead to cyclical negativity. That's all.

*>The other thing I would caution you about with Vanessa or other imaginaries is that you shouldn't become preoccupied with them, spending too much time conversing with them and neglecting other things, or honing your skills and thoughts to fit a particular personality. (It's good that you mentioned your flexibility in creating and altering them.)

Excuse me again, but what exactly do you mean by "honing my skills and thoughts to fit a particular personality"? To fit a personality of mine, or one of my imaginations? *

I mean organizing your personality in a way to respond to a specific (or even general) "type of Vanessa" that you've created. Not developing social skills/viewpoints, etc, that correspond to the broad reality of life. (Not that I would think you expect others to be like your dream people, but not interacting with others and/or not building up skills to work in the real world limits your experience, and thus your potential for growth.)

>Finally, I'd advise that you see a psychologist/behavior therapist to help you with the issues of your autism, how to cope and communicate your issues to others, etc. Also, do let others know that you have this disadvantage and what it means in the context of your talking to them.

What I meant here is that autism yields certain basic difficulties in interaction that coaching might be helpful for.

Also, don't apologize for "shooting down" anything that doesn't seem right to you or that you already know. If no one could be critical of the feedback they got, we'd have quite a limited sense of individuality.

49 Name: Kira : 2008-02-27 09:19 ID:FCKKjTXB

You can only dream about girl friends if you were to do nothing and just dream about having one but if you step up to it and seek for one then one may come for you.
You can say "Oh no it will never happen." But that is because you believe that it will never happen.
Try hard. It is just like studying: you can get good results by study hard (also the right way), same goes for love but finding the right way to do it hard.
Yes, looking for a girl is hard but you can do it (not impossible).
Also you can feel that you will/should become a single because I want to stay single as well.
Although I do not daydream about girl friends but I do have feeling of being a single forever.
However, that is because I wish to be a single.
In your case, it might be the fear: fear of reality, fear of responsibility, fear of rejections, and such.
You just have to move aside from those emotions and find the true love.
But if you want to stay in your dream, then it's fine too I guess.
Everyone has there own life and it's their choice.
They can be a drug addict, alcoholic, normal, virgin, player, etc.
It's their choice and you can't really do anything about it (unless they want help or they are hurting others).
Mmm but you know love is not about thinking though... Your negative thoughts could be holding back on your feelings.
Remember love is mostly about feeling, not about thinking.
Hope it helps.

50 Name: Secret Admirer : 2008-02-28 03:35 ID:Heaven

>>49 >Mmm but you know love is not about thinking though... Your negative thoughts could be holding back on your feelings.
Remember love is mostly about feeling, not about thinking.

Myths above. Love is VERY much concerned with thought processes and rationally working through things. Never forget this.

Relationships based largely on emotions are often those that have passion, and perhaps intimacy, but lack commitment/responsibility. Those largely tend to crash and burn. Hard.

51 Name: Kira : 2008-02-28 05:06 ID:FCKKjTXB

Yes the thoughts like those matter when you are actually in love(thinking and commitment) and are very important, however in the beginning feelings are very important.
Without feeling the love, you can't truely be in love... After you are commiting, thinking and feelings must co-exist in order to be successful.
But like I said, feeling comes first.

52 Name: little fox : 2008-03-14 03:38 ID:uQjt697B

Well, I recently found the girl of my dreams. I mean, I don't need to think on how is her face for I've been drawing her since I took a pencil and decided to make a female character. The most incredible thing is that she likes me ;) (my character never were going to like someone like me hehe).

She resulted to be as daydreamer as me. She even won me in that. She believes I will make her a couple of wings (of coarse we both know is a kind of childish game with a mixture of metaphors in it).

Just.... I can hardly believe.

Cheers!

a.

53 Name: some other guy with an imaginary wife : 2008-03-24 14:29 ID:r8+51F/2

>>18
I found that keeping track of all sorts of details required to simulate someone who had a life outside of my mind—specifically, someone who has a memory separate from my own—became impossibly cumbersome after a while. Do you keep notes on everything? What happens if you forget something significant she said before you record it? Do you interact with anyone else related to her, like her uncle? Do you keep track of his details, too? And god help you if you and Vanessa ever have children: the problem multiplies to absurd proportions.

In my case, I eventually created such a mess that I had to start over.

I made sure to get things right the second time around: completely linked/shared memory, no past before I created her, no separate world, no life outside of her interaction with me. Her sole purpose in existing is to love me. Version 1.0 was mostly an accident, but version 2.0 was very deliberate and planned. Been with her 14 years now.

I suppose it does depend on how "real-time" Vanessa is for you, though. Mine is a 24-hour-a-day companion. If yours is more like something you only do for short spans of time and put her "on hold" as necessary to sort out details, with an emphasis on pre-planned scenarios over spontaneous interaction, I guess that'd be more workable.

54 Name: Secret Admirer : 2008-03-24 14:50 ID:kdSV1CFw

>>53
Holy shit....

I just got an awesome idea for a comic.

Well that was unrelated, what I meant to say is "holy shit" you're a fucking loonie!
....cool!

I want to draw your "wife", can you describe her for me, as detailed as possible?

55 Name: Secret Admirer : 2008-03-24 16:17 ID:FboInXGf

>>54

Nothing "loonie" about that. We all have our own ways of coping with loneliness.

56 Name: Daydreamer : 2008-03-24 17:18 ID:2TbQO9pF

>>53
Whoa, more replies. I already kind of assumed this thread was over.
Well, I do "put her on hold" whenever I need to think of something in order for the "story" to go on. I'm also kind of easily distracted, so those imaginary situations often end up being interrupted for a few minutes before continuing again. I figured time just flows differently for my world and hers, and whenever you drop out of an embedded reality time stops there for you, until you return.
I don't really plan out scenarios in advance, though. I do often "visit" her with something to do in mind, like going to a karaoke place together or something like that, but as soon as I start daydreaming, I improvise.
And I also improvise anything she would say that I wouldn't know about yet, but if there's something we did together that I forgot, we both forgot. That's inevitable. Her mind (and her whole reality) is a part of mine, and I can't know and not know something at the same time. Another result of this is that nothing in a lower reality can tell me something I don't already know. I can only pretend to learn something that I either knew before or made up on the spot. (But then again, it's all pretence, isn't it?)
I used to have a 24-7 telepathic connection to my previous imaginary lover, by the way, so that she often just took on the form of a voice in my head during daily activities. She didn't have much of a personality, though. It would probably take more effort to think of what Vanessa would say, possibly too much to make such a thing very feasible.

Fourteen years is an impressive age for such a thing, by the way. It goes to show that one could keep such a thing up for a very long time.

57 Name: Secret Admirer : 2008-03-24 19:25 ID:Heaven

Please OP and other imaginary girlfriend gurus tell me how I can get my own imaginary girlfriend.

58 Name: Secret Admirer : 2008-03-25 08:14 ID:Heaven

>>57

And I'm serious too. I'm looking for hints on how to get started, how to keep it going, things to try, etc.

59 Name: Daydreamer : 2008-03-25 19:30 ID:2TbQO9pF

If you insist. I'll gladly give you some advice. And some personal opinions that you can follow or ignore at your own discretion.

For thinking up an imaginary person, the same rules and advices apply as those used by writers to create characters, since it's essentially the same thing. So you could look for tutorials on how to create an interesting character on DeviantART or in the Elfwood FARP, or wherever else you think you could find such a thing. For example I noticed many character creation tutorials advise to talk to your characters as if they are real people and try to "predict" (read: make up) their responses. A good character will end up leading a life of its own. This is exactly what you do with imaginary friends.

A bit of personal experience, i.e. something to avoid:
My first imaginary lover was an animated character. Watching the show in question, or watching cute fan art of it, would always make the bonfire of my love rise up higher and higher, but these things would always eventually lose their influence and the fire would cool down to smouldering embers again. I figured that this meant I did really love her, but when I wouldn't see her I would forget who she is, and with her personality I slowly lost my passion. More importantly, forgetting her meant I was losing her, and since she only existed in my mind (in that particular form anyway), my losing her would mean she would disappear. I eventually ended up in something I called a "war against oblivion".
My second (present) girlfriend, Vanessa, is someone I made up myself; therefore, I know her better than anyone else, and am no longer dependent on someone else to fuel my fiction. Thus that problem is solved.
Thinking up interesting characters and predicting what they'd do isn't very easy, but it's a crucial skill to an endeavour like this. It's exactly what you'll be doing all the time. Practice it. Read tutorials. Try to define the personalities of characters in shows (I was first inspired to create my own characters after watching the anime series Azumanga Daioh), or people around you. Try to define personalities in terms of virtues, flaws, quirks, philosophy of life, reactions when confronted with unusual circumstances, etc.

As for thinking up a girlfriend in particular:
Of course, she needs to suit you. If you haven't done so already, you should think about what you want from a girl, what type of girl you would fall in love with, what type of girl you would want to stay together with for the rest of your life. Don't settle for "blonde hair, blue eyes, big boobs, okay done". Only when she fulfils your deepest wishes can the two of you become truly happy together.
Also give her a good reason to love you. Since it's a relationship, it's not all about you loving her. Make her the kind of person that would want someone like you, the kind of person whose deepest wishes you could fulfil.
Of course, if you're looking for a more light-hearted and probably short-lived relationship, you can disregard all that. But if you're looking for more serious and committed romance, this is my advice.

[To be continued]

60 Name: Daydreamer : 2008-03-25 19:30 ID:2TbQO9pF

[Continued from >>59]

And it would probably be easiest to make up a person who lives in the real world, or an identical copy of it, rather than a whole imaginary world. The latter would probably be more of a challenge, but it can also lead to inconsistencies or having to stop to think things up when you're talking to her. It could also create a culture gap between the two of you; since you're from different worlds, you probably wouldn't have a lot in common. So it would be much more feasible if she lives in the same world as we do.

It may also help you to adopt a philosophy on daydreams that helps avoid obvious reality paradoxes. I personally think of dreams as embedded realities, worlds within our world. It's a fiction on our level of reality, but within their reality, everything that you decide to be "canon" is real. And when you learn to sort of "go with the flow" of your daydreams, it doesn't seem like you're behind it all any more either; it becomes a real world on itself.
Within your fictional world, at that lower level of reality, people can also think up other fictional worlds - fictions with a fiction. It could go on like that forever, at least in that direction.
(And who knows? Maybe we're part of a fictional world too. Maybe we're all characters in a grand work of fiction by God. Who, in turn, could also be a fictional person of a dreamer in yet a higher level of reality. That way, it could go on forever in both directions.)

Another thing. What people generally think of when they think of imaginary friends is kids talking to empty chairs and the like, pretending the imaginary friend is really physically there, but invisible and inaudible to everyone else.
Personally, I feel awkward when doing this. And it takes me much more concentration to keep it up, since talking to thin air makes it all the more apparent that you're not really talking to anybody. The thought "what the heck am I doing" would keep gnawing at me. So I hardly ever invite her into my own native level of reality. Instead, all interaction between me and Vanessa, and any other fictional person for that matter, happens in daydreams.

So, there you have a number of tips.

61 Name: Daydreamer : 2008-03-25 19:38 ID:2TbQO9pF

>>60

>Within your fictional world, at that lower level of reality, people can also think up other fictional worlds - fictions with a fiction.

Typo. Make that "fictions within a fiction."

62 Name: Secret Admirer : 2008-03-25 20:35 ID:Heaven

>>59
>>60

Thanks for the advice! Imaginary relationships are harder than I thought, but I'm going to try to make it work. I want a long-standing romance.

63 Name: Secret Admirer : 2008-03-27 14:58 ID:r8+51F/2

64 Name: Secret Admirer : 2008-03-31 14:31 ID:WojS7lhI

ITT: How to become a schizo.

65 Name: Secret Admirer : 2008-03-31 20:05 ID:Heaven

>>64

If fantasy had any connection to mental health, it would probably be reverse causation.

66 Name: Secret Admirer : 2008-04-01 12:40 ID:Heaven

>>65
You can't exactly say the extent of some of these fantasies are completely unhealthy.

67 Name: Daydreamer : 2008-12-19 15:33 ID:iPJEVt6t

Proof that the fact that a relationship is imaginary does not necessarily mean it's easier than real life:

My imaginary girlfriend and I broke up yesterday.

Our relationship had been less than stellar from the start, and we actually stopped really being lovers long ago, and became just good friends with an occasional inconsequential spark of romance. So technically we "broke up" long ago. But all this time, I still considered her the closest thing to a lover I had. The possibility of us ever getting back together is gone now.
She found someone else. I hope she will be a better lover to her than I was.

Believe me or not, but this has been largely beyond my control. My characters are developed to a point where they practically have a will of their own, and according to their personalities they can make their own decisions that may or may not match with what I would have liked.
I was in fact rather shocked to realize this turn of events. It took me a while to liberate myself of the feeling of having lost something very dear to me, and I'm still not really sure if I've come to terms with it by now. Vanessa and I were so close together, I considered her a part of myself. (I know, that's an ironic thing to say in my case. But I mean that even in the more common sense.)

I'm happy for the two of them. I'm happy for her, that she's found new love. I acknowledge without a second's hesitation that her new lover deserves her much more than I do.
I just don't want to be alienated from my best friend. That is by now the only thing that worries me.

Thank you for listening.

68 Name: Secret Admirer : 2008-12-19 18:35 ID:tPskQJ9e

>I just don't want to be alienated from my best friend.

Is Vanessa your best friend? Why would she be alienated from you?

As for your breaking up, it's as they say: there are plenty girls out there, imaginary or not, so do not despair. Basically you outgrew each other, and did not fit together. I think you should look forward for the new kind of relationship that fits you better now. Probably your best times are ahead of you, you just have to keep dreaming ('^-^)

69 Name: Daydreamer : 2008-12-19 21:15 ID:iPJEVt6t

>>68

>Is Vanessa your best friend?

Yes.
And to make it sound a bit less sad that my best friend isn't real: I have friends in real life, too, all right. But nobody is as close to me as her.
We have travelled through dreams together. We have shared our dreams. There's nobody else, not even imaginary, that I could say that about.

>Why would she be alienated from you?

There's no denying that our relationship will never be the same...
I'm afraid she'll consider me an "ex-boyfriend" now. I'm worried I'll seem like an interloper in her new relationship, a reminder of a previous love. Something of the past.
We used to be a team, Vanessa and me. We travelled together, had adventures. Just the two of us. It was all based on love in the end. To be together, and to have the whole wide world - and every conceivable world - open to us; two dream nomads exploring a grand omniverse of fantasies. All based on love, in the end.
Now the love part is gone. Surely, we could continue doing as we do, as good friends. And I think we will. But I wonder if it will be the same.

Do friendships of ex-lovers ever last long?

>As for your breaking up, it's as they say: there are plenty girls out there, imaginary or not, so do not despair. Basically you outgrew each other, and did not fit together. I think you should look forward for the new kind of relationship that fits you better now. Probably your best times are ahead of you, you just have to keep dreaming ('^-^)

I guess you're right.
I already came to the conclusion that in a way, this is a change for the better for both of us. We had no more future together. It might be best that the option of giving it another try is gone now, so we can move on, me as well as her.

I'm taking these things way too serious, aren't I?
But only if I do so does it have any meaning.

70 Name: Secret Admirer : 2008-12-19 21:39 ID:RpsSK4ih

>>1
Holy hell...

I thought I was the only one who lived like this. I've never told anybody about it.

DO NOT STOP DOING IT! I think you're awesome, and so does your girlfriend!

71 Name: Secret Admirer : 2008-12-19 22:18 ID:tPskQJ9e

>Do friendships of ex-lovers ever last long?

If there are no more lingering feelings, yes, I have witnessed that many times.

>I'm taking these things way too serious, aren't I?

You are,... But please help yourself

72 Name: Secret Admirer : 2008-12-20 00:08 ID:Heaven

>>64
No, schizophrenia implies unwilling intrusion from sources perceived to be beyond the scope of the victim's intent. While true that a combination of self-induced conditions may increase the chances of developing psychosis, this does not count as one of them. It is natural that one should seek from oneself that which they can create and that which they cannot find in society.

Also I would like you to eat shit.

73 Name: Florian : 2008-12-20 04:21 ID:UemMbO4q

I am interested in knowing what eventuated from all of this. Don't feel obligated to tell me, however. Also, I hope that you can find a real girl with whom to share love with.

74 Name: Florian : 2008-12-20 06:20 ID:UemMbO4q

Hmm I also, now that I think of it, I dream of a girl... but she isn't corporeal in my dreams, but I can feel her and see her nonetheless. I dream of her as a soul (no not in a religious sense, but a sort of a phantasy. Think outside of the box. I don't like being so explicit, maybe I shouldn't have included this text, but oh well I say). But really, it is more of an ideal that I wish to pursue in reality. However I have never had much luck as I am too shy to approach women. If only they inititiated conversations with me or something, etc., etc., lament, lament.

75 Name: Daydreamer : 2008-12-20 10:12 ID:iPJEVt6t

>>73

>I am interested in knowing what eventuated from all of this.

You mean what became of us in all the time since I posted the OP?

I think I've already answered that question in the last few posts I made. See: >>67

76 Name: Secret Admirer : 2009-01-01 17:54 ID:Ghbj/nUF

I'll try to be as less shallow and edonistic (is it spelled right? edonistic? i am not really good at english so give me a break) but women are a necesary evil, unless you are gay and then men are an necesary evil - what i mean is that one can't be alone forever and love is a goddamn rollercoaster 'cause it has its ups (ups like "motherfucking yeah i am happy!!") and downs (like "i wanna forget that bitch") but in the end sex is a primal need so what you are feeling can be translated as sex urges, but still you can be an honest romantic (like me 3 years ago) and you seriosly need to be cherised and cared for.
Either way, ronriness (as you put it) is common to anyone, my advice is to at least try to get close to someone, like an experiment of sorts, and try to have fun with it.

77 Name: Secret Admirer : 2009-01-04 00:24 ID:QNwqnE/7

Does it matter whether or not your girlfriend is imaginary?

For all intents and purposes, she was real to you. She had an independent will (at least, you could not consciously control her). Though she had no corporeal form, our long-distance friends that we only see through the mail, internet, etc. are the same. It made you happy to treat her well and to spend time with her.

So, what difference does it make?

The way I see it is: while imaginary people can serve a purpose, treating them like real people is a waste... All of the time and effort you put into your imaginary girlfriend, who can't truly feel emotions, could have been given to a real girl whose thoughts and feelings genuinely exist. You could have actually made someone else happy too.

Of course, you have to enjoy the relationship, or it's not worth it either... perhaps when you were "dating" Vanessa, you weren't ready for a real-life relationship; you would not have been able to derive happiness from one. But now that you two have "broken up", perhaps it's a sign from your subconscious (because I don't see how an imaginary person could have truly independent will; s/he on some level must be controlled by you) that you're ready to transition to real-life beings...

Some people have suggested that you go out and look for a girlfriend, but in my opinion, you should let it come naturally rather than actively search for one... it's a lot less frustrating. Are there any women that capture your attention? Try talking to them and see what happens. But don't go out and purposely look for "women to whom I might be attracted".

78 Name: Secret Admirer : 2009-01-04 01:02 ID:RgoW5rn1

Hey OP, you write that you're an autist. From your post it is apparent that you don't understand how our non-autist mind works. You don't understand what pleasure is. Our mind works a certain way but is always questioning itself nevertheless. Satisfaction is receiving an honest approval of the workings of your mind from a different person. An imaginary friend can't provide THAT.

79 Name: Secret Admirer : 2009-01-04 10:54 ID:AugViv56

>>78 all that is nice and fair, but who cares? if it works for him, thats good enough, and more (real) girls available for the rest of us. It's a win-win situation =^-^=

80 Name: Secret Admirer : 2009-01-04 22:20 ID:QNwqnE/7

>>78

It's pretty patronizing to say "you don't understand what pleasure is". If he doesn't have the same concept of it as you do, who cares? Why does he have to change his own definition of pleasure? It's not hurting anyone.

81 Name: ドルードルー : 2009-01-06 14:45 ID:VSdBWjg9

This is truly beautiful, and I don't think anything is wrong with it. You are slowly creating your own reality, it's not that bad of a thing. I Dream about a girl also. It is only in my sleep, and when I wake I hurt as if I have lost something very dear to me. I feel strongly that she exists in the world we call real, I often want to find her.

82 Name: Secret Admirer : 2009-01-06 22:08 ID:EPSrEWNg

>>78
Douche.

83 Name: random : 2009-01-07 17:37 ID:xOrmtdqG

>>78
if a non-autist mind thinks like you, I'd much rather be an autist then. I'm quite sure YOU are the one who doesn't know what pleasure means, please don't bring down others with your lack of understanding and relearn your definitions. Might I suggest starting with satisfaction? ...you don't need another person's approval to be satisfied.

>>82
agreed.

OP: whatever makes you happy, go for it. We can't tell you if it's right or wrong to have this imaginary girlfriend, but if you want her as part of your life, even if it's just in your imagination, then by all means you have my blessing :)

84 Name: Secret Admirer : 2009-01-07 18:48 ID:tMFyWs2l

I don't think OP is 100% honest to himself

85 Name: Daydreamer : 2009-01-09 23:32 ID:iPJEVt6t

>>77

>The way I see it is: while imaginary people can serve a purpose, treating them like real people is a waste... All of the time and effort you put into your imaginary girlfriend, who can't truly feel emotions, could have been given to a real girl whose thoughts and feelings genuinely exist. You could have actually made someone else happy too.

That's true. I hadn't thought of that yet.

>But now that you two have "broken up", perhaps it's a sign from your subconscious (because I don't see how an imaginary person could have truly independent will; s/he on some level must be controlled by you) that you're ready to transition to real-life beings...

Haha, no.
Daydreams are not like night dreams, not even for me. I'm quite sure there are no messages from my subconscious involved. I just let things unfold in a way that seems natural to me, what would be conform her personality.
And I'd like to clarify that I could consciously control her. But that would be uninteresting. That way any interaction between us would lose all meaning - it would just be me making conscious decisions.

>Some people have suggested that you go out and look for a girlfriend, but in my opinion, you should let it come naturally rather than actively search for one... it's a lot less frustrating. Are there any women that capture your attention? Try talking to them and see what happens. But don't go out and purposely look for "women to whom I might be attracted".

I've been open to falling in love with real life girls for a while now. I'll continue to do so.

>>78
I think you overestimate how different I am from you. My mind works quite like that of any other bloke. I've found out often enough that I'm not that much of a unique snow flake after all.
Moreover, precisely because of my disorder, I have actively invested years of introspection into and observation of how the human mind works, if only to be able to understand myself. I believe I now have a fairly good understanding of the workings of the mind, arguably better than that of your average person.
Add to that the fact that I live in a world full of non-autistic people, and it should be easy to understand that I know by now what normal people are like. It would take a bigger recluse than I to remain oblivious of such things. Or a thicker one.

>>84
I think you might be on to something.
It's not easy to be 100% honest to oneself, especially about feelings. They're so fickle and elusive.

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